Elicia,

Personally, I hope you continue to post. Forums like this benefit from having a variety of viewpoints, even if it might rub some people the wrong way. Just be prepared that if you do make a point, be ready to defend those opinions.

As for other posters who believe that attraction to a race is no different than attraction to hair color or height, when was the last time you heard parents say, "Tsk, tsk. Our Jill is dating another blonde. What will people say?"

By Frangiapani (203.54.52.236) on Wednesday, May 9, 2001 - 04:28 am:

Elicia,
If you do decide to come back..Why not just ask yourself the question? You've dated a spectrum of colors, why do you do it?
I guess I date black men because its just my preference. To me its no different than some women liking tall men or blonde haired guys. I just dont see why there has to be a reason. I kinda like asian men aswell, theres something gentle yet deep about an asian guy. Men dating asian ladies are just doing so because they are attracted to them, and why shouldnt they? Im sure if he came across another race..white? he would think no different and go out with her too.

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Tuesday, May 8, 2001 - 11:56 pm:

Melirosa, you are right, this is somewhat offtopic of BM/WW and for that I apologize.

However, there are many threads breached on this site that are not strictly on topic.

Forget the stupid story about my ex. I should never have told that story, people have gotten stuck on that.

The real issue I was trying to raise here is, that IR dating is not a level playing field. It is very different depending on what your race and gender is, whether your options are wider or narrower.

It is not that I am trying to only date white. I have dated black, Latin and Asian men for your information. The point is that I am not *trying* to go out and date any particular skin color or hair color and I am trying to understand what leads some people to do so. And trying to parse apart the factors of race and gender to determine: is attractiveness absolute? Or is it merely a matter of perspective and taste?

I will shup now, thank you. Obviously I'm misunderstood so I'll stop posting. Although it makes me LOL how people can say SHUT UP! But they keep posting!. As if I'm yelling in their ear instead of them clicking the topic. You all better check your*self*--and determine what it is that makes you react in such an absurd way.

Again, I apologize that this thread has wandered off topic. I am just trying to understand the mechanism of race and gender in the dating world. I thought this forum might offer some insights.

See ya.

By Wyatt (207.8.207.78) on Tuesday, May 8, 2001 - 12:37 pm:

Elicia,

All I have to ask you is, since your white ex-boyfriend left you for another, why don't you just get back on the horse and take a lesson from all that has happened? If you think many white men are dating Asian women, see it as progress. They are breaking down the barriers between the races. I know it must hurt to be dumped, it never is easy, but you have options to consider. Why are you not trying to date men of color(black, brown or yellow)? If white men are dating interracially that is a clue that you should be doing the same thing, or are you secretly a bit racist yourself and would rather date only white men? Why not see that asian womana and all asian women as jsut women, instead of thinking that it has to do with stereotypes. Date black or hispanic men, they are out there. There are also asian men, as you stated 34% in your city. Where is that SF, San Jose or LA? The real issue here is why are you blaming white men or asian women? There are so many people out there of many colors looking for love, why are you looking for them?

By Roberto (205.188.197.59) on Tuesday, May 8, 2001 - 10:57 am:

Give her hell Melirosa, give her hell. ~ Roberto

By Melirosa (208.48.12.163) on Tuesday, May 8, 2001 - 10:01 am:

elicia-
have you not grown tired of making your less than intelligent, hypocritical statements? can you not find a web-site for insanely scorned ex-girlfriends of white men who are now with asian women? what is it with you? your statements are empty and meaningless because every time you attempt to make one, you end up contradicting yourself. why are you here at this web site? you have offered no intelligent, rational conversation concerning black men and white women, hence the name. your quest for sympathy has more than failed and your incoherant psycho-babble has been an annoyance. there is no advice than anyone can offer you, nor does anyone care at this point. if you want people to stop "attacking" you then to put it very bluntly, SHUT THE HELL UP! go and find a site or maybe a friend that can identify with your feelings of helplessness because you are a white woman. GIVE ME A BREAK!!! you can offer no conversation to anyone here about IR relationships between white women and black men, which is something that we take very seriously here. we discuss very real issues that we actually live each and every day, as people in IR relationships. none of which you can identify with. to be in a relationship, (white woman, black man)is very difficult and requires the people in the relationship to be very strong and dedicated to one another. these are the type of things that we discuss here and all the problems that go along with it. a woman like you could never exist in a IR relationship because you are not strong enough, and you care too much about what other people say and how everyone else sees you. you are not affected by the problems that the women here face every day because we love and choose to be with a black man. your particular "issues" should be hashed out somewhere else, may i again suggest in a psychiatrists office? go and take up your hate for your ex-boyfriend and asian women out on them. go vent your bitterness in a scorned womens group. do something. do anything. stop annoying yourself by receiving "annoying" feedback from us.

By Kansascity (209.242.125.130) on Tuesday, May 8, 2001 - 09:25 am:

Elisia I am sorry you are going through this, but your better off without him. He is the other woman's problem now. Anyway, you don't need a pimp.
Aside from your issue with the old boyfriend, do you have other concerns about what else is happening in our world today? There many more issues to be concerned about which is not to say what bothers you is not important. It is important, but what are you going to do about it? Maybe you could relocate to some really nice small town like Sarataoga Springs on the East Coast. You could if only you would wash that man right out of your hair. Get your money together and take a train. Train rides are relaxing.
Also, what kind of work do you do? Do you want to go back to school? I say MOVE and do not stick around where your at. Where's your family? Hope they can be there for you. It isn't easy but you'll manage once you get your head together and don't lose heart. Good Luck

By Spade (207.174.142.136) on Tuesday, May 8, 2001 - 03:46 am:

Elicia,

Here we go again....

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Quote:

Spade-

What I find annoying are the bold messages. And I guess you missed that I was kidding when I said, the "meaner the better" . Mean is never better. Kind criticism is constructive. Your message was not.

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By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 08:49 pm:

Spade-

What I find annoying are the bold messages. And I guess you missed that I was kidding when I said, the "meaner the better" . Mean is never better. Kind criticism is constructive. Your message was not.

In any case, you also missed the point that while this thing was connected emotionally to this incident, after talking to lots of men about it and reading on the web I found the problem was unconnected to one man and that in fact a lot of men went out of their way to date outside their race, for superfical reasons. That is what I take issue with. I have made no statements such as "all men" or "all women". I am just talking about numbers. And that is why I was curious to come to this site and see if it was a male thing, or a human thing--whether there were also lots of women who made a point of dating outside their race. and if so, to understand the factors behind it.

If my statements annoy you, what is the point of posting two bold , long duplicate messages. ;-) Why not a constructive criticism,and move on.

By Spade (209.207.174.160) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 08:42 pm:

Elicia said:

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Quote:

What is with the bold messages. Very annoying.

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By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 06:11 pm:

Spade--

I did not allow myself to "be bullied". I simply removed myself from a situation that was beneath me.

I am not trying to connect it to other factors. It just led to my eyes being opened to the fact that many men seemed to be looking for traits in a partner that were much more shallow and much different from what I was looking for, and that is the real issue I am trying to get to the bottom of.

What is with the bold messages. Very annoying.

By Spade (209.207.174.160) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 05:40 pm:

Elicia,


Stop trying to connect other people and factors(namely White men, Asian women, media, etc,.) into your personal experience with being bullied by another woman that your ex-boyfriend was seeing. Deal with that problem like a mature individual and get past it. Find a way to handle it without making excuses and using other factors from distracting you from doing so!

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 04:46 pm:

Fran : thanks for your comments. I know that this issue of being bitter at white men for being shallow is something I need to get over, lest I become the same or worse. ;-)

That is for sure. And discussing these issues with others in a relatively safe forum is one step toward trying to understand and accept.

For the record, my being vain and weak is a pretty new trait, dating from this traumatic experience I mentioned where my bf left me for an Asian woman. someone asked how I allowed this woman to force me out of my house. She was screaming at me (outside the house) , venom dripping from her distorted face , "you better get out of here and leave us alone, he would never want you disgusting white women, and you're not on the lease (mad insane laughter) so get the fuck out before you find some surprises!" I was shaking with fear, I had never seen someone look so evil before, I thought she might even attack me! She left and the neighbors came out and gave me some stiff drinks. Later they told my bf that she was evil and crazy but he didn't care. He did nothing and I figured, I am not going to stoop to a battle like this, (and she was right, I *wasn't* on the lease so had no legal rights) so I left. It definitely left me with the impression that men are not very concerned with a woman's being evil and insane.

(I told that story just to satify the curious of someone who asked what went down. In any case I think the harsh nature of it contributed to why I have such a personal problem with this whole thing.)

I never used to pay much attention to physical beauty. I never used to question whether I was beautiful. I took it for granted that inner beauty was the most important. It was only since I started to clue into the fact that white men were driving across town to Asian laundrymats that I started to wonder whether men were too overly focused on the outer package, and I became vain wondering whether how my outer package compared.

I'm not trying to say I'm not at fault. I should have reacted differently. I'm just explaining so that those who have attacked me harshly understand a bit. I'm not trying to say that this story was all that bad compared to what many people experience. And I realize that if I were stronger I wouldn't have become vain from it. For whatever reason, it pushed my buttons.

So the real question is, not how much I suck because of it, but how to get over it. How to focus on the positive aspects of people and their true natures, rather than on how skinny your thighs are--despite the fact that seems to be the focus of many men, the media, the advertising industry,etc...

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 02:34 pm:

Roberto-

I am so sick of hearing this crap about how American men are dating foreign women because American women treat their men like sh**. American women *still* do the vast majority of the housework and childcare, and now bring in half the bacon too. It just happens that we now have too much respect for ourselves to be someone's servant.

Why don't American men take a look at themselves.
Instead of asking "what can women do for me" and "why are American women no longer treating me like a king and rubbing my feet and kissing my a**"? and therefore looking to foreign women from sexist countries to play that role, ask yourself "how can I find an equal relationship of two adults who complete each other and bring joy into each other's lives."

That would be a major step into maturity and real spiritual growth.

By Frankie (128.164.161.244) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 01:39 pm:

Well, it looks like it has been an eventful weekend. Personally, I don’t find Elicia’s comments to be that big a deal. They seem to be a variation on the old white liberal guilt, but instead of talking politics, we’re talking dating, marriage, and yes - sex.

I don’t think that white skin will be considered poorly in future generations. While white men may be dating Asian women in greater numbers in cities like San Francisco, they still overwhelmingly date white women. One obeservation I’ve made is that the type of white guys many (but not all) Asian women seem to go for is the bookish, reserved type. I’m not calling these “white women rejects”, but they are not the GQ type. If anything, it is a compliment to these Asian women, that they look beyond mass-marketed notions of what is a good looking man. The problem arises in that there are plenty of Asian guys who fit both the bookish and the fashionable type of man, and yet they are being disregared in startingly high numbers by Asian women. Can anyone name another ethnicity where 50% of the women are either married, living with, or dating men from another ethnicity? The only other example I can think of is from religious circles - where Jews have intermarried with gentiles to such a degree that some conservative Jews are worried they will be married out of existence in the US.

On a brief side note, I’ve glanced at some Jewish message boards, and the complaints that men and women on those boards make are very similar to the ones you’ll find on African American boards. The women complain of being rejected by the men in favor of gentile women as a sign of “making it” or accuse the men of being ashamed of their Jewish roots. In turn, some male posters complain that the women are too demanding, materialistic, or want to marry gentile men so they can have non-Jewish looking children. I guess no matter how you choose to identify yourself, these issues reappear.

While black men dating white women may be increasingly common, it is still the one couple the riles the most people. And whatever competition white women may be feeling, a look around will show that they still have far more dating options than say black women or Asian men.

By Ishvara (38.163.112.61) on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 08:58 am:

I've been following this thread with great amusement also. Elicia, I like Fran have never had problems attracting men from pretty much every ethnic group, this I do not attribute to my physical appearence, bm tell me I have flavor, others have described it as an undefinable presence. This attitude or aura is the defining factor. I am very pale and spotted too, which I had a hard time excepting b/c I do not fit the popular expectations of what makes beauty. The older I got and the more feedback received from men, the more I realized after initial attraction it is some other quality that makes you desirable. There are so many beautiful women, many who are empty and ugly inside which over time usually distort their beauty to unattractiveness. A shining soul is the true testament to beauty. I thought Melli said it best so I don't feel the need to scold you however, I think you should take some of this advice to heart, look inside yourself, define the ugliness and do your best to eradicate it before it destroys your natural beauty.

By Roberto (205.188.199.47) on Sunday, May 6, 2001 - 08:20 am:

Elicia:

You asked, "So are you saying it is right and natural for white men to be with asian women, because they are more attractive".

No, what I was stating was a fact that white males have been crossing the interracial line for asian females for decades. I do not care for the mundane arguments here, but only to a specific fact that you addressed. It amuses me that you and others like you fear what you do not understand. If you think this so-called defection by white men for asian women is a threat to you, wait until the hispanic women take center stage.

A case in point, my master, 9th Dan Grandmaster L, who is Korean has a daughter who is 36 years old, but looks 26 years old. She has never been married. She is a financial analyst for a brokerage firm. The American women there fear her she says. She is highly respected in our realm as a 4th degree black belt hapkidoist. The white guys are going crazy trying to date her. She is reserved, highly disciplined, do not and will not let a man take advantage of her. She is highly selective of the men she associates with. She acts and dresses as a lady, she is not materialistic, she is loyal to family, and friends and is ever learning to improve herself. This is what attracts many white males to her. Some very powerful men in this community are trying court her.

I think American women in general, have better wake up to the fact that there is a world of women out there coming to this country in numbers unseen who will be your competitors for mates, for jobs, and for a life style that many of you have taken for granted. As one German lady once told me, "I do not understand American women, they have everything, but they still want more and they treat their men like s****. ~ Roberto

By Spade (63.72.242.11) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 09:55 pm:

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Quote:

Is it just me, or is this topic being way too analyzed???

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By Modulis (216.249.83.117) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 08:09 pm:

Fran,

No, this topic is no over-analyzed. There's no such thing as over-analyzing. As socrates said,"The unexamanied life is not worth living."

By Frangiapani (203.54.39.28) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 07:38 pm:

Is it just me, or is this topic being way too analyzed???

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 04:25 pm:

Roberto:

So are you saying it is right and natural for white men to be with Asian women, because they are more attractive?

I do not believe that it is natural in all species for males to dominate females. It is not true of most birds and fish. There are two types of mammals. In one type the male is much larger than the female and the males dominate the females. The alpha male has his harem. In the other type (like most monkeys) you can barely tell the difference between them, and they often mate for life and share raising of the young.

Humans are midway between the two exremes in terms of how much bigger males are than females. (between say elephant seals where the males weigh 4 times as much and one male mates with the whole tribe, to monkeys where they are the same). Therefore we can go either direction between partnership on one hand, domination on the other.

Our closest relatives are the bonobo chimps, the omnly other mammals where the females dont go into heat but are receptive all year round. The mature females lead the troop and there is much less violence and competition than in their cousins the common chimps. They are hyper sexual and very intelligent. Female-female pairings are common.

So, humans can go either way, and many believe that for thousands of years of human history we lived in partnership without male domination or widespread warfare. You are right, it is not white people who have destroyed the planet, it is the domination mentality and it filters down to men over women and race over race. So let's end it and work side by side for peace!

Yeah, right. Men like dominating because they don't see what a relief it would be to nurture their gentler characteristics and give up the act. So it may not ever happen, and we will destroy ourselves.

By Roberto (152.163.195.213) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 10:25 am:

Elicia:

New Phenomenon! Hardly. This shows how cloistered most Americans are to trends that affect the world. The first great wave of white male/asian women interracial marriages began during World War 2 with our occupation of Japan. American servicemen married Japanese women in unprecedented numbers from the late 1940's well into the 1950's. With our further involvement in the affairs in Asia, principally Southeast Asia, the white male interracial marriage between asian women be they from Thailand, Vietnam, The Philippines (they were an American Colony so to speak with a long tradition of white male preference for women of the philippines since the Spanish-American War), Okinawa, Taiwan, Korea, and Singapore went unabated. This not new. The American serviceman was the first to marry asian women in large numbers, which has carried over into the civilian world through family associations, business and social affairs.

During my tour of duty in Asia in the seventies, the greatest number of interracial marriages as was reported by the American Embassy in Seoul, Korea of white males and korean women was 94 % during the year 1973. I had a white male who worked for me in Taiwan say, " I always wanted to marry a chinese woman, and now I have". This is not new. In one of the many racial seminars that I had to sit through while in the Air force in Korea and Taiwan (because of the racial tensions between black and white servicemen, a lot of it had to do with social and sexual competition for asian women) white males at the time would openly say that its "more fitting for a white male and asian woman to marry than a black male and asian woman". So there it is, there is nothing new here. My first wife was asian (Taiwanese). She was a perfectionist who drove me crazy. There is something to say about asian female preference, but that is another topic for another time. ~ Roberto

By Frangiapani (203.54.51.91) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 03:16 am:

But it just goes to show that you cant say all Italian Women are attractive or all British women arent. We are all unique and have a distinct quality about ourselves that cant be put into a certain category.

By Modulis (216.249.85.213) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 03:02 am:

Women of S.Europe from what I've seen tend to be more attractive than women of N.Europe. I'm not that attracted to British women overall, but Spanish or Italian women are gorgeous. Even within the U.S., attractiveness can vary widely by location. From what I've seen there are more babes in California than in middle America.

By Kansascity (209.242.125.208) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 01:50 am:

Elisia: Are You Asian?
How you are carrying your thoughts through this discussion leads me to wonder if you are not playing a trick.....;-)?

By Frangiapani (203.54.51.91) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 01:35 am:

Ive been told European white women are more attractive than the American WW, because they are more exotic. But, Its up to the individual on what their preference is. Its so wrong to survey and put people into different categories.

By Modulis (216.249.85.213) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 01:18 am:

Elicia,

It sounds like San Francisco to me, demographically. Yes, I've seen WM/AF couples a plenty when I am visiting up there. As to it being a backlash against feminism, that may very well be the case. Look, humans are animals, and we are subject to many of the same instinctual laws that govern the behavior of our biological kingdom. From Lions, to dogs, to fish, to deers, etc, males dominate females. And I think the same instinct is within humans. The difference is, animals nor nature for that matter is politically correct. Most men just don't want a woman that is more dominating than they are. It may be wrong, but it's probably in part simply animal nature.

You said something that I find disturbing. that being white will be a badge of dishoner and that karmically this is right. This is absolute nonsense. Nobody's melanin pigments or lack thereof should be considered a badge of dishonor. Not one person in this newsgroup had any choice over what race they would be born into. Your post seems to wreak of some form of self-hate and reverse racism. As to what whites have done to the planet, these things have been done by all races. You are setting up this simplistic dichotemy of whites=bad, nonwhite=good. Evil has been perpetrated by all races. The Native American enslaved and sacrificed other Native Americans, blacks in Africa enslaved and killed other blacks, and in some parts of Africa, child slavery is still going on. Look what happened in Rwanda, or what happened under Idi Amin. Mass slaughterings of blacks by blacks. Arabs enslaved blacks in Africa as well. The Japanese invaded China and Korea and massed raped the women of the countries they conquered. The Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodian communists were responsible for the slaughter of millions. Do you think that somehow the world would be some kind of utopia where all races were holding hands and singing if only whites didn't exist? Of course not. Your insistence that someone should deserve a certain treatment because of the race they were born into is Nazi-like.

By Hectorvelasquez (63.169.132.218) on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 12:17 am:

There was an article recently in the Los Angeles Times about how Southern California is becoming much more diverse. They mentioned the city of San Marino which is next to Pasadena and used to be an exclusive WASP neighborhood, but now has a population that is about 40% Asian. Anyway they interviewed San Marino high-school students and many of them talked about how so many of the white male students were with Asian female students. They also interviewed an Asian male student and a white female student who both mentioned that they felt a little slighted. The article also mentioned how Asian male and white female students were not hooking up at the same rate as WM/AF for some strange reason.

I have encountered a few white guys who have told me that the have an ‘Asian fetish’ or they like Asian women or they are going to get them an Asian woman, although they don’t seem to tell me why the like Asian women. I think part of it is that guys tend to do what other guys in their circles tend to do, so one guy will say, “I’m going to get me an Asian woman,” and the other guys will follow. I don’t doubt that some white women who want white men feel these pressures.

There are also enormous pressures on women in America to look a certain way and a sadly a large amount of how a woman is “evaluated” depends on how she looks. Historically this norm has targeted white women. I’m not saying that women of other ethnicities feel these pressures, but many do not because what they possess is simply not part of the system. For example, eating disorders effect white woman to a much greater degree than they do black women. Black women may have been content with a larger size because black men have been more accepting of this perhaps. So yes, the Barbie doll type of women may be the norm that you see on television and the movies, and there may be certain privileges involved with possessing it, but woe unto you if you barely fit the norm and have to work like a dog to keep it. Even some of the women who look like Playboy bunnies have the greatest self-esteem issues because realize somewhere that there is more to a human being than just being valued by their looks.

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 11:45 pm:

Well ,I looked up the numbers. This city is 34% Asian, 44% white - somewhat close to 50-50, but closer in experience because unfortunately the Black (7%) and Hispanic (18%) neighborhoods are more segregated while the white-asian populations mix more together.

Frankie your post was very interesting about the global dating market. I agree that traditionally, whites have gotten an unfair advantage for their white skin. I think that had nothing to do with intrinsic beauty (if there *is* such a thing--what do you all believe?) and more to do with culture. Whites conquered and dominated, therefore whiteness was considered good.

In addition to that, paleness has been traditionally preferred over darkness because poor people worked outside in the sun and got dark skins (as Modulus pointed out). However, I do believe this is changing now that people stay indoors and those who are in the sun are more likely to be rich people with leisure time. So I do think there is a growing trend toward darker skin being perceived as more beautiful in many circles. Including, by me...when I look around.

(And then, when I see Black people relating, esp. in places like New Orleans where there is a stronger than usual tradition of live music...I find them so much more natural, stronger, more vibrant, alive..again i don't want to diss white folks on this list (but then, isn't there a tradition of people being able to diss their own group?) but that's how I feel),

My city is extremely "politically correct" and there is definitely an attitude that white is un-right. I am not whining about this, or saying that I feel discriminated against, or that I can understand in any way the experience of people who have been discriminated against. However I am just pointing out that the times they are a-changing. I truly believe that in the generations to come white skin is going to be more of a badge of dishonor than honor. And karmically, this is right. It makes sense after what whites have done to the planet.

I have asked several white male friends : "All other things being equal between two women ,one is white and the other is ethnic, which would you prefer"? pretty much all of them have said "Of course, all other things being equal, exotic is sexier. Asian, Latina, Black...there is something about exotic women."

I guess what got me about it is that at least two of them used the words "of course". As in, *everybody knows exotic is better*.

And while frankie, you point out that many women as well as men are interested in the "exotic other" , it seems to be that far more men are interested in this. All the women I have spoken to say that they are looking for a "soulmate", someone like them, not an exotic "Other". Of course, this doesn't mean that a WW and a BM or an AW and a WM can't be soulmates. Simply that I have never personally talked to a WW woman who was specifically out *looking for* a BM . I mean, I have dated men of all races and I do think BM are particularly beautiful , but I'm not looking for any one type. I'm looking for my soulmate, may he be Black White or whatever. Whereas, I know many men who specifically drive to the asian part of town to do their laundry to meet asian girls. Or who state "I am going to marry a blonde!" How can you set out to choose someone based only on some color?

And I guess that is why i started this discussion on this list. I was curious to see if there really are lots of women who are as likely as the men to seek out the "Other". And to try to understand why...is it natural--"opposites attract" , or a combination of factors caused by divisive racism? Does it have to do with the backlash against feminists and strong women ,leading men to seek out women that are perceived as more submissive? Is it a continuation of the white male tendency to conquer the women of all the races of the world that he has conquered? Or is it just that everyone seeks out beauty in the world, and some races traits lend themselves more to beauty in one gender or the other...

Of course, it is a combination of all these things. But I am trying to make a bit of sense of it all.

By Frangiapani (203.54.51.201) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 10:54 pm:

I always come to the same conclusion on beauty, and that show you express yourself. Ive been told I have some kind of aura that attracts men and its not because of my physical features. Its the way we carry ourselves as women. You can have an inner beauty that can shine outwards with the way you talk and walk, your sexuality or even just by smiling. All women have something exotic or beautiful happening for them, you just need to find out what it is and exploit it!
If you feel like as a WW, you posess nothing then people around you willl probably pick up on that. I agree completely with Melirosa.

By Modulis (216.249.85.213) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 10:45 pm:

I don't know of any city in America that is 50% Asian. But if white males are dating Asian women, the better for me. Just frees up more WW. Maybe I should relocate to this city. Hehheh.

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 10:23 pm:

For the record, (Melirosa) I am not all as vain and dark and bitter as you make me out. ;-) And I am very sorry if I offended you or any other people on this list. And as I said, I am well aware that my issue is extremely petty compared to the all the people in the world who are truloy suffering.

Yes, I am vain. (I blame myself, but also the culture that makes beauty all important for the female self-worth). And weak. And my fragile ego was hurt. I'm not terribly hateful and jealous, and I treat every individual, whatever shade of color, the same as the next, with kindness and without judgment.

Not just by my boyfriend, but several other men have turned me down and said they were only interested in Asian women. I live in a city that is close to half Asian and about half of the white men I know date almost exclusively Asian. So the 5% Asian figures you cite to not apply here. So, its not just some sort of sick fantasy. It is a very widespread phenomenon. But it did seem to be kind of a sudden realization. I guess it was just moving to this city. Or maybe a major influx of Asian immigrants, or a trend towards an appreciation of asian traits.

And it should go without saying that I am only talking in gross generalities. Is that not the only way we can speak of racial differences? Of course, there are white women who dance better than black women (and by the way i have been taking dance lessons for years and it seems obvious that *overall* the women of color in the classes have an edge over me), there are Asian men who are more muscular than Black men etc. etc. I assume that everyone takes for granted that no one can make any assumptions about any individual based on their race, or gender. No race or gender has any monopoly on kindness, intelligence, altruism, strength, weakness, or any other basic human trait. In the end of the day, we are all equal, and all different. Of course.

But we must come to grips with the fact that there are *statistical* differences between races and between men and women. Is that not why people come to sites like this one--to discuss these general differences? Why else would black men and white women come here to look for each other. if we were all the same? To attempt to understand the meaning of the fact that humans have been created in different races? You say , Melirosa, that I am the only one who cares about my petty problems. Yet, several people here have taken time for a thoughtful response. I thank them for that. And I thank you as well, for expressing your disgust. Maybe that is what I really needed to hear--some perspective. ;-) The meaner, the better.

I can't afford therapy, but this discussion has helped me. I know I am not alone in this. Many white women in cities that are predominantly asian-white feel as i do about the "defection" of white men. I have also read sites about white men/asian women where the asian men have posted much, much nastier and more hateful posts than mine. And of course, we see here how hurt and angry many black women are about WW/BM relationships. This is a real phenomenon.


Gotta go-- more later.

By Modulis (216.249.85.213) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 04:57 pm:

Frankie, you asked if the worldwide preference for white female beauty if because of advertisers or some deeper reasons. There have been theories that this could be something instinctive. A friend who took a psychology class told me that there was an experiment where babies where shown pictures of women of various attractiveness. It turned out that the babies reacted more positively towards women that were beautiful. And these are just babies so that can't be effected by marketing. I don't know how this would break down by race, but I don't dismiss the possibility that we may have some inborn trait that influences what we consider attractive.

Btw, I also totally agree with your statement that the dating game is a marketplace like any supply and demand marketplace. That's the same thing I've always believed. It's particurly intereting when you throw race into an individual's market value. If you are a member of a darker skinned race, you are going to have points subtracted from your overall value on the dating market, and if you are white, you are going to have some added. I think that many black women know this whether they realize it or not, and that explains the frustration towards BM/WF couples. That if you have two women, one black, one white, that are equal in every way, the white woman will have a few points added to her just because she is white.

I think this also explains why some WW that are overweight or not the best in the looks area that want a successful husband will date minority men, because they know that their whiteness will give them some leverage. If they only had to compete against other white women, they wouldn't do well. I read an article written by a white woman who is with an Asian man who admits that she is not very attractive, but that the Asian guy was in disbelief that he actually had a white woman in his bed.

By Melirosa (208.48.12.163) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 02:33 pm:

frankie-
your opinion is your opinion and you are most certainly entitled to it. no, i do not feel as though i am being harsh. she made some very harsh judgements towards white women. there are many white women on this board that i am sure did not appreciate being labled as clueless and disconnected and being told that the whole world hates them. what a loaded statement to make! then she asks for my empathy. i am sorry frankie...i am not at all a person who is usually so critical of others in that way. i am a very very sympathetic person when i see that someone is suffrering or they are going through a terrible injustice........BUT........i am also a person who has seen a lot throughout my life. i have seen a lot of TRUE suffering and i have no patience for someone who is whining about petty personal issues and looking for empathy. the world is full of so many other problems that we ned to address. if she could find it within herself to maybe turn her attentions to someone else that honestly needs empathy, maybe should we then be able to stop being so self absorbed and help someone who needs it. PLEASE! she goes on to offend other women on this board with ridiculous comments and jibber jabber and the whole everybody hates me attitude! so no frankie, to answer your question, i do not feel as though i am being to harsh. sorry!

By Frankie (128.164.161.237) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 02:04 pm:

Melirosa,

Don't you think you're being a bit harsh with Elicia? I mean, she hasn't said that her problems are bigger than the ones you've listed. And she said that this current state of affairs is fairly recent, she hasn't thought about this her whole life. One of the attractions of this board is that we have had disagreements with each other, but we're generally civil. Most message boards descend into juvenile shouting matches, so far this one has not.

I'm not saying you're wrong in being rubbed the wrong way by what Elicia wrote. I can't tell you what to believe or how to feel. I guess I'm suggesting there are ways to criticize her without jumping all over here. Just my bit

By Melirosa (208.48.12.163) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 01:20 pm:

elicia-
one additional note....you asked me to pity you rather than hold contempt towards you. i can't ......... i pity people with real problems and real issues. for instance, people that are hungry and living in the streets, single mothers in dire straights trying to feed her children and holding down 2 or 3 jobs, sick people, people who are facing serious injustices due to their race, none of which you are going through to my knowledge. get a grip, the only problem you are having is with yourself.

By Frankie (128.164.161.249) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 12:13 pm:

Neat dialogue. Here’s my piece

Think of the dating world as a marketplace. For most of America’s history, that market was highly regulated. Parents and peers had tremendous say over whom their children date - and that is now changing. Groups that used to be prevented from dating each other are now freer to do so. So a young white women begins to notice that an increasing number of white men are dating Asian women. A black woman expresses her frustration at the number of black men who date white women. White and Asian men also have questions about the new world of dating, but are probably less likely to openly voice them, since men aren’t allowed to complain about the dating world, for fear of being labelled possesive and chauvanistic.

Now as for the notion of white female beauty - it is still the predominant type, not just in America, but globally. If you go to Japan, you’ll find that if a company wants to sell its product, it gets a white model or actress to do the ad. Example - can you see Meg Ryan hawking a shampoo on your TV? You do if you’re watching Japanese TV. In Latin America and India, women with darker complexions are passed over as potential mates in favor of lighter skinned women. Turn on Spanish television - you’ll see so many blondes, you’d think the program was filmed in Iceland. Spanish TV has so few black people on, it makes an episode of Friends look like a spot for the NAACP. Is this the work of evil advertising and TV execs? Or is there a deeper reason why white women are sought out all over the world?

If every Asian woman in the US woke up tommorrow and married a white guy, that would still leave something like 80 million white guys. Asians make up less than 5% of the national population, so the fear of competition that some white women feel occur largely in metro areas like SF or LA. It is also a combo that seems to be uniquely found in the US. When you go to Europe, men have often sought out darker complexioned women. In Italy and Germany, women from East African countries such as Somalia are marvelled at for their bronze complexions. British personal ads are brimming with men seeking Indian women. And it’s not just the men who behave this way. In France, there is a sizable number of women who regard Asian men (East and SE Asia) as the epitome of masculine charm.

Plus, Elisa, you said you have increasingly noticed yourself attracted to black men, and the IR marriage stats would say that you are not alone. The majority of black/white marriages in the US are black husband and white wife, not the reverse. If you factor in pre-marital and extra-marital relations, the gap becomes even wider.

If you look on some of the other threads on this board, you’ll the running theme that, in almost every part of the world, there has always been a fascination with the perceived “Other.” It’s like we, as humans, have this pre-programmed instinct to identify differences between ourselves and others, and simulatenously, we want the “Other” for ourselves. So, white slaveowners regard their slaves as less than human, but cannot stop themselves from having sex with black women. Black men often feel the sting of prejudice from whites while growing up, yet oddly enough find a sympathetic ear in the form of a white woman.

As Morpheus said in “The Matrix”, ‘Welcome… to the real world.”

- Frankie

By Hectorvelasquez (63.169.132.218) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 11:58 am:

Now, why would a white woman not write a post like the one Elicia did and what in particular would a white woman not have written? What? Why may I ask?

By Melirosa (208.48.12.163) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 11:50 am:

elicia-
forgive me for the harsh manner in which i replied to you. while in a time crunch, i was reading your post and i felt that i had to say something for the simple fact that if i didn't i would have probably exploded. i responded to you in the manner in which i was feeling at that moment. i have posted here for a long time and all of us that post here on a regular seem to be able to help one another or at least suggest to one another on how we can resolve issues. BUT.... i have to say i have never heard of a situation such as yours and i can truly say that i am "baffled", for a lack of better words, and i think you need to seek some professional help because it sounds to me like you actually loathe the skin that you are in and you have a lot of self hate issues going on. no one here will be able to help you overcome these issues and you should seriously consider getting some help before you let it take over you.

the situation with your boyfriend leaving you for an asian woman............
1) how do you let another woman threaten you out of your own home? are you that passive of a personality?

2) what do you mean you were "suddenly" surrounded by white men who were no longer interested in white women, only asian? WHAT? did this group of men have a group meeting one night and "suddenly" decide that they do not like white women anymore and they are from now on only going to date asian? sounds like they have some issues of their own.

3) i think your jealousy over the fact that your boyfriend chose to abandon the relationship for an asian woman lead you into thinking that all of the sudden you were surrounded by all of these beautiful asian women that you never before noticed. your wild and jealous thoughts threw you into a whirlwind of paranoia and false truths which then got you started in the "hating the white race and who you are situation". you let bitterness and jealousy run you into the ground instead of being a strong woman, loving who you are and moving on to greener pastures.

i am a woman of latin desent, and to hear you group us all together as all of us looking alike, with tan skin and our "exoticness" is truly comical. there are white women with the same features. not all white women are pale, faceless, clueless, dicconnected human beings as you have described them to be. how can you group people into a stereotypical image? you have obviously not been around many other races and experienced many cultures, you do not seem to familiar with the differences that exist within a race of people. perhaps that is why your perception of race and the human race in general is so grossly distorted.

when you say that the whole world hates you for the fact that you are white, that lets me know that you are truly paranoid and that you hate not only yourself, but others around you. you are really no different than any of the racists that imply that a certain group of people are one way and should be catergorized as such.

your suggestion that blacks and asians should be "prized partners" is not only ridiculous, but verging on insane. who are you to decide based on external characteristics, is the perfect combination? is not that what hitler did? hitler hated who he was, a brown eyed dark haired person. he decided he would create the perfect race of humans, blond haired and blue eyed in his opinion, which in his sick, dimented mind, required killing off the jews due to their darker features. do you realize the close minded, bias opinions that you are having are similar to those of one very sick historical individual?

if you are not happy with your performance on the dance floor, take dance lessons. you are implying that blacks and latins are the races that dominate the "rhythm gene". whites are just as genetically inclined to dancing as any one else. it all has to do with the amount of and type of dancing that you are exposed to. have you ever even bothered to learn? maybe you yourself do not do well at dancing because it doesn't come naturally to you. DO NOT put white people as a whole in that imaginary group of yours. i know many white people who can dance and i know blacks and latins that can't dance to save their lives.

sounds to me like you are a former ego maniac that had her ego severly bruised and can't handle it. you are a jealous and bitter person. you hate yourself so therefore you will NEVER be able to except anyone else for who they are. you blame the whole white race because your white boyfriend left you for a non-white woman. hate, jealousy, and self loathing is your entire world and you sound like every day that you wake up you are a miserable, dark person who goes through life trying to figure out who should be paired up to create the perfect human being. you have a streak of vanity that runs through you that sickens me. if you were not so vain and insecure about you and your beauty, you would not be seeking out what you think is true beauty in others because of the simple fact that your boyfriend left you for an asian woman. you have a very distorted image of yourself and i am sure that you have greatly offended other white women on this board generalizing white women in the way that you have. the white women on this board are here to talk about their IR reltionships, and not trying to listen to an insecure, bitter woman, who is full of self pity spew out total garbage about their race and ramble on like a spoiled brat about how everyone hates her because she is white.so, with all due respect, stop your pathetic, annoying whining because your psycological needs will not be met here. no one has the time nor do they care about soothing your ravaged ego. you need to check yourself. maybe you should take a few years, re-evaluate your life, get some much needed counseling and possibly even a rest somewhere because you are one unhappy woman with a severe identity crisis which could have possibly been avoided had you not been not so self absorbed to begin with.

By Kansascity (209.242.125.96) on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 11:17 am:

NOT A WHITEWOMAN ASHAMED OF RACE/ANYTHING :-/

And a white woman would not write a post like you did. Are you pretending to be what you're not?

By Roberto (64.12.103.21) on Thursday, May 3, 2001 - 09:25 pm:

Elicia:

Why hate thyself. Your former boyfriend obviously has found solace in an asian mate. Why allow his rejection of you for a submissive female negate your own strengths. You must have some qualities that he felt threaten by. Most white females I knew over the years who were pushed to the side for a non-white women were usually seen by their white male mates as the following:

(a) Strong willed and not taking antmore B.S.

(b) Feared that you had some attraction to the black male and felt sexually threaten to compete.

(c) Could not control your views on issues important to him.

(d) Wanted a Geisha girl, but you were unwilling to play the role.

(e) Felt that you are no longer his mother's model, so he needs someone more acommodating.

(f) Or is it all of the above.


~ Roberto

By Elicia (64.211.228.36) on Thursday, May 3, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

Melirosa-

Look, I *know* its pathetic, my feelings. I know I'm having an identity crisis. I am too embarrssed to talk to my friends about it, so I thought I might try to fix it by talking to strangers...sometimes that helps to get another perspective from people without worrying that they are people you know who will judge you.

I know that my problems are totally petty and pathetic. That doesn't change the fact that they bother me. I am trying to get over it. Please have pity rather than contempt. ;)

By Elicia (64.211.228.36) on Thursday, May 3, 2001 - 08:19 pm:

Melirosa--

Hey, thanks for your kind words. I am spilling my guts here and it's nice to have support.

I might suggest, if someone's posts or a topic bugs you, not to read it.

By Melirosa (208.48.12.163) on Thursday, May 3, 2001 - 05:15 pm:

ELICIA-
FOR NOW I HAVE TWO WORDS FOR YOU ~ IDENTITY CRISIS
YOU HAVE GRATED MY LAST NERVE WITH YOUR PERPETUAL WHINING AND I WILL GET BACK TO YOU TOMORROW. GET A GRIP GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Modulis (216.249.79.86) on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 09:27 pm:

Funny, my feelings are just the reverse. I think there are attractive black women, but just not as many as you find amongst white, Asian and Hispanic women. I may be a dark-skinned brotha and secure in what I am, but when it comes to femininity, I find women with soft-looking light skin and flowing hair to be the epitome of female beauty. It's all just subjective, but when I see a gorgeous Italian-looking woman, my jaw wants to drop, it's just a reflex.

As to tanning salons, it's a psychological thing. In the past those "rubenesque" figures were considered a sign that you were in the upper class. If you were thin and frail, it meant you were probably a hard worker and not well fed. These days, a thin, hard body now means that you have leasure time, probably belong to a trendy fitness club and have high self-esteem.

I think it's the same with skin color. Being tan is just sign of a leisurely life, whereas in the past it meant that you worked outside and probably had a hard and poor life. The context changed drastically. Speaking of rubenesque bodies. I have studied art in college, and it was looking at all those slides of renaissance white females that may have got me into this mindset of associating white women with being soft, smooth and "creamy" looking. I love women with thick, but shapely bodies as were portrayed in those high renaissance paintings.

You asked me what I think of Asian women. I find many Asian women to be beautiful, especially Phillipino women, but to be honest, I'm not all that attracted to them. My list of preferences would be white first, Hispanic or middle eastern second, black third and Asian last. I just don't meet many Asian women I have much in common with, therefore I just don't feel that drawn to them.

It's unfortunate in my opinion that you seem to be rebelling so much againt femininity. There's nothing wrong with a woman being a woman and not being afraid to be one. I think it's great when women want to put on a dress and wear lipstick. If that's what attracts the guys, then do it. Of course many of these guys that find you attractive are looking for Mrs. right-now and not Mrs. right, but many of them will be interested in you as a person, your looks may have just been what hooked them. Think about it. If I took two copies of the same book, wrapped one in an attractive cover and one in plain cover, which one is going to attract people first?

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

Quote:

? I'm wondering if your self-hatred is based upon your own personal looks, or your looks as they relate to your group's phenotype. Do you not think there are ANY attractive white women?

Yes, I think there are some attractive white women. But in terms of numbers, just a much smaller percentage compared to other races.

Although white skin has been prized for a long time now, don't you think there is a reverse thing happening where melanin is better? And that that explains the tanning salons?

Beauty is to some extent in the eye of the beholder, but fashions come and go. So 200 years ago the "rubanesque" figure was prized. Therefore it would make sense that white women would have been considered beautiful compared to Asian women. Nowadays, skinny is in so Asian women are the best. As well as, what is considered "feminine" changes with time. Pillowy soft large breasts, hips and buttocks used to be feminine. Now it's slimness. It's impossible not to get caught up in the fashion.

I am insecure about the looks of my race as well as my own looks. I think it's so sad that women are made to feel to frantic about conforming to this airbrushed ideal of feminine beauty in ads. Many people have told me that I'm beautiful. Sometimes I see it. Sometimes I look too "masculine" to myself--my arms too muscular, my face too long and strong looking. In any case there's no way my beauty can compare to most asian women with porcelain faces and tiny bodies. Modulis, what do you think about asian women?

It also seems to me that we're just starting the swing to a huge backlash against women and androgyny. It fits with our current administration. In Ralph Abraham's book "Gaia, Chaos, Eros" he says that in history culture swings between more authoritarian times where gender roles are very separate, and freer more carefree times when people can feel free to be more androgynous. I think part of the preference of black men for white women ,and white men for asian women, is men getting back at feminists and independent women and choosing what they perceive as more submissive women who will play into the old role of women serving men, and looking pretty and frail . certainly the asian women my white male friends love seem very frail--teetering around on high heels. Not to put them down, its what they are into, but it is kind of foreign to my nature.

Which is why for me it's such a dilemma, do I work on being more "feminine" - demure, submissive, fragile --wear makeup, high heels--in order to attract a man, or do I be myself--outspoken, independent, more focused on intellectual things than on looking pretty...in the hopes of find that one in a million partner who is attractive to me, yet, wants a strong partner instead of an exotic eye shape.

Thanks for listening!! I think it's so great that we can all spill our guts and talk about such controversial topics on the Internet...

By Modulis (216.249.79.86) on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 08:05 pm:

Very interesting post!

You said that you feel that white beauty standards are based on white domination of the planet. You may be right in part. In many countries that were former European colonies, you will find a value placed on lighter complexion.

It seems bizarre and interesting to me that a white woman is here saying that she thinks she is unnatractive compared to other women. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think an attractive white woman is the most beautiful thing that the eyes can behold. You see your paleness as lacking in something that other women have. While I find Latin, Asian and black women attractive as well, there is something so very smooth, soft and creamy looking about a white woman's skin. And touching it is enough to drive me nuts. Why would you find your type to be so unnattractive? I think one thing that is cool about WW is their variety, they have blue eyes, green eyes, grey eyes, brown eyes, red hair, blonde hair, black hair, brown hair, sometimes, all other groups(unless they're mixed with white) have only black hair and brown eyes. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I think it's interesting that you only find good in other races.

Some of what you are saying seems to be based in stereotypes, such as black women dancing, and whites being disconnected and clueless, and Asians being graceful.

I agree with what you say, that I wish beauty were limited to the superficial as well. There is a very nice Hispanic girl I know that has liked me for awhile, and I know she would make a good girlfriend if I wanted her, but I am not physically attracted to her and could not get involved. I feel bad about, and I worry that I am too superficial because of it. But I was brought up to see physical beauty, and there is no way I can unlearn something like that. I almost wish that kids were raised from the beginning to not even recognize physical beauty and base it entirely on the person's inner qualities, but that is too idealistic in the real world. I want a relationship that is based on as you say, true love, growth, magic, partnership and transcendence, but hopefully it will be with an attractive brunette!

By the way, I don't know what you look like, but do you have a high opinion of your own physical beauty? I'm wondering if your self-hatred is based upon your own personal looks, or your looks as they relate to your group's phenotype. Do you not think there are ANY attractive white women?

By Elicia (63.70.210.20) on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 04:34 pm:

I'm new here and very happy to find such intelligent, mostly respectful conversation (compared to other discussion groups out there).

I have been torturing myself and hating my race for a few years now, ever since my boyfriend who i was living with had his asian ex-girlfriend move in and threaten me out of the apartment. All of a sudden i was surrounded by white men who would no longer bother with white women, only Asian women.

And I started looking around and saying--wow, Asian women really *are* the most beautiful women .How did I not notice that before? They have perfect tan skin, long thick hair, exotic eyes, and skinny bodies. And they are more "feminine"--demure and graceful. I look at them and think, how can I possibly compete? Why would a guy look at me when the majority of the planet consists of these exotic creatures?

Then I started thinking, any color is better than none. That white skin was pale and mottled and ugly. Latin women are exotic and tanskinned, black women have more presence and vibe and can dance. But we white women have nothing. White people disconnected and clueless. I decided the standard of white beauty was based solely on the white domaination of the planet.

And then I started to realize that pretty much the whole world hates us. That an Asian person is more welcome among Black people than a White person--despite the fact that more Asians seem to be racist than Whites. This is understandble because of history--but then, our generation has nothing to do with slavery. It seems sometimes that there is a polarity between whites on one hand, everyone else on the other. It is understandable, but not entirely fair.

But then I started to realize that I was being hypocritical. After all, I had to admit to myself, I found black men on the whole more attractive than white men--more muscular, sensual. I concluded that black people are on the whole more masculine, and asian people more feminine. And therefore black men and asian women would be more prized as partners, at least based on external characteristics.

On the other hand, whenever I go out dancing, I feel differently. Then, it is the black women who attract me---the way they glow, the way they move. I don't even see the Asian women on the dance floor.

but once again, I don't see much charm in us white women. : ) So I have to admit, my jealous , pathetic ego likes reading the posts of the black men who like white women to understand what anyone can see in us. And I wholeheartedly understand the bitterness of the black women. It must be so much worse than how I feel being deserted by white men for Asian women.

Yes, I should be more enlightened. These bitter black women who hate IR relationships should be more enlightened. But dammit, we are human and it *hurts*. Why are some people born beautiful , and others not? It's just not fair. Is beauty in the eyes of the beholder, or is there really an objective standard of beauty?

I wish we could all say that external beauty only mattered to the superficial. But we all know that *especially for men*, external beauty is extremely important. I wish I could trust that there are lots of men out there that were really looking for commitment, true love--a love that is about personal growth, magic, partnership, transcendence. If any men are still reading this, that do believe in true love, please make a noise and let me know you are out there. And that you don't want an exotic submissive plaything, or a different woman every night.

BTW: I hope I didn't offend people who have been on the receiving end of real discrimination. I know that my petty ego hurts cannot compare. But it still feels bad.