Reverse Interracial Sexual Harrassment

WHITE WOMEN AND BLACK MEN: CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN BLACK MEN AND WHITE WOMEN: Reverse Interracial Sexual Harrassment
By Roberto (152.163.213.182) on Thursday, May 3, 2001 - 07:57 pm:

Frankie:

My friend you do not have to apologize. I can understand how busy and hectic life can be for us all.

Reginald Lewis is for me "the ultimate black man". He was rare and I wish there were thousands more like him. He was a man who saw wealth and its generation as a means for freedom from dire conditions that many young people find themselves. The example of black men such as Mr. Lewis are the saviors of the black community. Its their guts to take on adversaries of all stripes, smart, holds education as the key to success, and maintains a family. So few of them, but vital.

On your point about British women and black servicemen. Last year I ran a post here on Memorial Day on the experience of my uncles who served in Europe during the Second World War and their interracial contacts in England, France, Germany and Italy. It's my belief that the great wars in Europe were the seed to interracial contacts across the gender line. That contact (a first for many) laid the foundation to greater interracial acceptance here in the United States. It has been said the World War's One and Two, also laid the foundation for the chipping away of the traditional marriage in the United States as more women entered the work force, especially during the second war war (thank you Hitler and Tojo). One of the untold stories of that period were the secret loves of white women with black men on the homefront, while their husbands, and boyfriends were overseas and were thrown into contact with black men in the workplace. The seeds of acceptance really took off then. I enjoy the stories of those who lived in those times. The pictures of white and black women in those days were striking. Women of that time had a natural beauty and pose about themselves.

On single mothers. Many cannot help the situations that they are in. The problem I have with this notion that many women have about "not needing a man to raise a child", especially black males is that young boys need a male figure in their lives. There is a "War Against Boys" in this country by the powerful feminazi organizations and their allies in the nations media. I hope that some reason will someday enter the picture before its too late for this country through moral decay.

My goodness Frankie, that Halle Berry is indeed a beautiful woman. See what you get from a white/black union, beautiful children who become even more beautiful adults. ~ Roberto

By Modulis (216.249.79.86) on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 08:30 pm:

Frankie,

You make a good and intelligent point. I think many parents do see black men as unmarraigable material because black men do have a proven record of abandoning their kids and families. And number two, black men make less on average than white and Asian and probably Hispanic men, so that makes things worse as well. Then we have our de-facto caste system with whites on top and blacks on the bottom. It's a frustrating mess.

By Frankie (128.164.161.246) on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 12:41 pm:

Oops, I mean to type "Some non-blacks reservations would fade."

By Frankie (128.164.161.244) on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 09:51 am:

Roberto,

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

What I admired about Reginald Lewis was that even though he became a successful businessman, he did not forget that there were many other black kids who did not have the chances he did. But instead of trying to get government involved, he took the task on his shoulders to offer chances.

Now back to the juicy stuff…

I visited the National Archives in the Summer of 1999, and one of the photos they had was from a WWII dance contest in Britain. The black and white picture featured the winning couples, which were black men/white English women couples. The card that accompanied the picture noted that these pictures were never printed in the military papers, for fear of the black soldiers safety. The black soldiers had copies for themselves. Hard to believe that a picture could incite men to violence.

The current issue of British FHM features Halle Berry on the cover. In the interview, she reveals that her mother (white) was born in Liverpool, and moved to the US when she was a little girl. The interviewer then asked if her mom ever used some Liverpool slang, but she laughed it off and said no, since aside from being born in England, her mom never went back. But she thought it was neat she could trace her family to two countries. One thing I always like about her (aside from her angelic face and killer body, I’m just a weak man after all) was that she saw no problem in being very public about her love for her white mom, and yet firmly embrace the African-American community at large, eventhough her dad left the family when she was young.

And that leads into the touchy subject of single moms. I think one of the reasons that non-black parents are nervous when their daughters date black men, is the large incidence of broken homes and illegitimacy in black families. I believe the illegitimacy rate for black children is currently 70% - across all income classes. So while African Americans are wealthier than they were 40 years ago, the black nuclear family has all but disappeared. So the fear that many parents have is that their daughter will get pregnant, and the man will ditch.

For those African Americans that grow up in two-parent households (like my old girlfriend) - the social indicators are almost identical to white families. Just as likely to go to college, own a home, etc. Even the much-hyped digital divide disappears, when you compare black two parent households to white two parent households - each home owns computers and has Internet access in about equal measure. The problem is that most black children are raised by just one parent, and thus have fewer resources to rely upon.

It may sound like a roundabout approach, but I feel that if the two-parent household could be brought back as the norm for black families, some non-whites reservations would be fade.

- Frankie

By Roberto (152.163.197.67) on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

Frankie:

That book on Mr. lewis.

"Why Should White Guys Have All The Fun, How Reginald Lewis Created A Billion Dollar Business Empire, by Reginald Lewis and Blair S. Walker, by John Wiley & Sons, Inc, 1995.


REGINALD LEWIS IN HIS OWN WORDS:

"Even in my own career, a person of very modest means has been able - by dint of his own efforts -to achieve great wealth and financial independence, which therefore suggests that some progress clearly has been made. But in my view, it is all too little when we consider the day to day drama being inflicted upon many of our children who are of African or Hispanic descent and who are not yet fully included in the American Dream."

By Roberto (64.12.105.183) on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 07:28 pm:

Frankie:

You are so right about perceptions of one group over another. In my own travels around the world I have always been amazed at how others think I should be as a black man. When they get to know me they are amazed that I would do this or do that or know this or know that. I found this especially true in my travels in Latin America and Asia (Korea, Taiwan, Japan and other countries). you are right, a lot of it is preconcieved notions of what a black man is suppose to be (lazy, stupid, cowards and the like).

Black men as far as being the "first movers" toward a woman, this is brought into the realization in life early, that we have to take chances, no matter the cost, because for us life is just that "taking chances". We are in large part aware all our lives what is against us, so why fear a rejection from a woman, when you have not at least tried, that is the least what we should fear.

The black businessman you were thinking of who was married to a Filipino was Reginald Lewis, who owned the Beatrice Foods Empire. He built that billion dallor enterprise and left it to his wife when he died. He died young and was born in my home town of Baltimore (a proud native son). He put out a book before he died called, "Why Should The White Guys Have All the Fun". He was brillant and was a very shrewed businessman. He caught a lot of flak from black women for marrying a Filipino and going outside of the black race.

I respect Tiger Woods for taking a stand and co-equally recognizing both of his parents when many blacks refuse to acknowledge him for his identity and beliefs. He is a good example of someone who sticks to his principles and hold his parents very high in his life. ~ Roberto

By Ishvara (38.163.112.108) on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 12:23 pm:

My Indian girlfriend has been with a bm for seven years and STILL hasn't told her parents for that very reason.

By Frankie (128.164.161.253) on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 10:36 am:

Roberto,

Changing racial beliefs may be a part of it, but I think it is more basic than that. It seems that black males are raised to be outgoing, whereas many Asian men are taught the value of being reserved in public. So, if an Asian guy and a black guy see an attractive Asian girl, I think the black guy would probably be a smoother talker, and make the first move. Not that the Asian guy isn’t friendly, but he may be more reticent about expressing interest. From the girl’s point of view, it’s always flattering to be told how good looking you are, so the black guy benefits from what economists call a first mover advantage.

And to be fair to some Asian parents, some of their reservations about having their daughters date black men may have to do with outdated racial notions, but some unfortunately is a result of firsthand experience. Particularly for small business owners in iffy neighborhoods, a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by young black men. During the LA Riots, one scene that was stuck in my mind was Korean shopkeepers, wielding semi-automatic weapons to protect their businesses against looters. People judge other groups by their worst experiences with that group. A black guy may forget white people who treated him with courtesy, but he will never forget the security guard who followed him throughout the store.

The Tiger Woods angle is interesting. What do you think about the flack that Tiger Woods has taken from some black people about giving his Asian heritage equal billing with his African American heritage? I believe it was undeserved, cause no man should be asked to disregard his mother for the sake of someone else’s political agenda. I think Thgurgood Marshall’s wife was Asian as well. And although I cannot remember his name, the late African American head of Beatrice was married to a Filipina.

Anonymous - a lot of Indians do tend to date within their own, not out of animosity towards others, but knowing the hell their parents may put them through when they bring home a non-Indian date. And in Northern CA - a lot of them are immigrants, so there is a bit a culture barrier too. Hey you could always enroll in medical school, that seems to be where many Indians and whites hook up.

By Anon2000 (207.218.73.78) on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 11:04 pm:

frankie,
next to black men, i really like indian men, but don't really meet too many. there are a lot of east indians in northern california, but it seems that they usually marry their own kind. in berkeley, there are a lot of hindu and north of me (sacramento), there are many sikh. sutter county has the largest sikh population in the u.s. outside of india. i find them very handsome:)...and indian culture and music is beautiful (i agree, roberto).

By Roberto (205.188.199.173) on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 06:48 pm:

Frankie:

This black male/asian female unions is interesting. Do you think it has anything to do with the "rise of Tiger Woods", who has a black father and an asian mother. This could be a new awakening on the part of asians from their own racist beliefs. ~ Roberto

By Frankie (128.164.161.240) on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 03:16 pm:

Roberto,

No problem, but bear in mind - if any other Indian reads my post, he’ll probably say I got Indian culture all wrong, and say that is not the case in such and such a place - it’s our quirk.

By the way - with the recent opening of the movie “Along Came a Spider”, an article noted that the romantic subplot in the book between the character of Dr. Alex Cross and the white female FBI agent was dropped in the movie version. Morgan Freeman said that his character was not a James Bond-type, so he changed it. Do you buy that? What’s additionally interesting is that in another Morgan Freeman movie, “Nurse Betty”, his character very openly falls for a white woman. The movie wasn’t that good, but for other reasons.

On TV, there seems to be an increasing incidence of showing couples that are black man/Asian woman. On Ally McBeal, Ling (and just about all the other women on the show), are wooing over the Taye Diggs character. On ER, Dr. Chen’s child had a black dad, which she gave up for adoption to a black husband/Asian wife couple. As her character never really had any on-screen interaction with the father, it seems to feel she gave in to lust - they never seemed to be boyfriend/girlfriend, and they don’t show her dating the father now. On The District, the black mayor had an out-of-wedlock child with a Vietnamese woman. The movie One Night Stand (a snooze-fest) featured Wesley Snipes with an Asian wife. I believe his girlfriend in real life is Chinese. What is intriguing about this is that this type of couple is far less frequent in reality than black man/white woman, yet gets much more airtime. Probably because the white TV executives feel less threatened by such a couple.

As for Indians - we’re hardly on TV. Seinfeld had an episode, where Elaine disrupts a wedding by letting it slip that she had sex with her friend’s Indian groom. Also, on Seinfeld, Jerry spent an episode trying to determine if his girlfriend Sudra’s breasts were real or fake. She was played by Teri Hatcher. Gideon’s Crossing featured an Indian doctor who, in one episode, has sex with his patient’s leggy blonde wife. This same show has an Indian-Irish actress named Rhona Mitra, but her character is Puerto Rican and Jewish. And Apu on The Simpsons, aside from being the smartest man in Springfield, had a fairly active dating life prior to settling down in an arranged marriage. A couple of weeks ago, ABC showed the Jennifer Aniston movie, “Picture Perfect”. Normally, I wouldn’t have paid this chick flick a second thought, but as I was flipping channels, I noticed its opening scene was taking place at an Indian wedding, with an Indian groom and white bride. What I thought was interesting and refreshing is that the filmmakers didn’t make any jokes or political observations about it.

By Roberto (152.163.204.69) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 10:26 pm:

Frankie:

Thank you, that was most insightful. I have always been fascinated by Indian culture. I love Indian music and the spiritual, and philosophical teachings of the yogas and their mind/body attainments. As a martial artist, I have found that the roots of many eastern martial arts have their roots to India (much older than the Chinese systems). Perhaps we can have further dialogues in the future on a range of issues. Take care my friend. ~ Roberto

By Frankie (128.164.244.178) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 02:57 pm:

Roberto,

Tough question. In my limited observations, I have found that it depends on if you are an immigrant, or were born here in America. And if you are an immigrant, your views will be shaped if you came as a kid, or as an adult. From what I've seen, slightly more Indian men marry out than Indian women, but it's not as staggering a figure as East Asian women who marry/date white guys.

Because Indians are a polyglot bunch, dating in America is a challenge. An Indian friend of mine recently got married. Both he and his wife were born in the US. His bride was Indian, but most of her family refused to show up. Why? Because he was a Bengali Hindu, while she was a Muslim girl whose family was from Mysore. So even if we date within our own group, we can't be sure that we'll make our parents happy. So satisfying our families takes on a greater importance, and causes us Indian men more stress, than any feelings of competition with white or black guys.

By Roberto (205.188.200.201) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 09:11 pm:

Frankie:

I apologize for not getting back to you. I want to ask this question of you. Do indian men of asian descent fear being emasculated or in competition for their own women from white and black men? What is the feeling and thinking of indian men in the sexual competition for their women by other races of men as more immigrate here. You no doubt know of the history of the emasculated black male in this country's history. Do indian men prefer white women over their own? ~ Roberto

By Melirosa (208.48.12.163) on Tuesday, April 3, 2001 - 11:06 am:

kansascity-
i couldn't agree with you more. well said.

By Kansascity (209.242.125.194) on Tuesday, April 3, 2001 - 09:23 am:

Rape is wrong regrardless of the rationale for its use as a weapon against women. (If someone wants to rape they don't need a reason.) Also,women are tired of being pawns in mens wars. Most women are nothing like those who have this thing about beating aggressive males at their own games. Women overall just want to love and be loved and want men who will be faithfull to them and their children.

By Frankie (128.164.161.245) on Friday, March 30, 2001 - 04:47 pm:

Roberto,

Your point that men compete with each other for women is valid. It’s when the competition crosses color/ethnic lines that passions arise. If you look back at history, it took on much more explicit, straightforward competition. Spanish explorers had sex with the Native Americans, and gave rise to the mestizos. White American slaveowners showed how the felt about black men, by having their way with female slaves. In India, when Muslims first entered the country, they were encouraged to marry Hindu women, as Islam is passed along the father’s line - so the children of such a union would be considered Muslim. In the newly independent Zanzibar in the 1970’s, the black leadership encouraged African men to take Indian women, to demonstrate to Indian men who was in charge. The last dictator of Nigeria, died during a Viagra-aided orgy with three Indian prostitutes (got that bit of info off the Newsweek International website). In the Bosnian war, Serbs raped Muslim women. Basically, when there are groups living in proximity to each other, the men like to score points by having sex with the other group’s women.

Now, there is a huge difference between using sex as a weapon of war like in Bosnia, and consensual interracial dating, as in the US. But a competitive element remains. In fact, consensual interracial dating can be far more bruising to the ego. As a man, you would be infuriated at seeing your women violated in wartime. But at peactime, when you see your women reject you in favor of a male of the opponent, that’s truly emasculating, especially if it happens in large numbers. As Sailer pointed out in his article, white people really don’t know the impact, and are comfortable with it, since they are in the majority - but minorities are acutely aware of the impact of IR dating, since a small pool of eligible partners is made even smaller through IR dating.

In Eddie Murphy Raw, he had a great joke about Michael Jackson dating Brooke Shields. He joked that since Michael Jackson was considered a safe black guy, they had no problem with him taking her to the Grammys. “Michael Jackson takes the whitest woman on the planet out on a date, and white people didn’t say ****. If that had been me, white people would have lost their minds. Cause they know Brooke would have been ****** that night.”

- Frankie

By Kansascity (209.242.125.223) on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 02:43 am:

I don't think I should be in this discussion other than to suggest that men who find themselves in these situations tell these "RJ/aggressive women" that they have found Jesus.

By Roberto (64.12.106.29) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 11:02 pm:

Frankie:

Despite the myth of gender equality, we still have a two tier social system between men and women. Men naturally still feel that they are the dominant sexual gender, and they see women as submissive, weak, emotional and deserves protection from the more sexually predatory male, so naturally the cultural belief system is still skewed to the female, but that is beginning to change with the emergence of the new woman of the 21st century. But, the real dirty little secret is that the female of the species is the most cunning in terms of her superior intellect in using the situation of a human encounter to her best advantage. This is her leverage to counteract the masculine strength and aggressiveness of the male. Frankie, you are right we can never legislate romance in the work setting. Romance will find a way. I knew first hand being in the strict rigid military enviornment for years, that even with strict rules and codes of conduct and behavior, romance still found a way. Look at the controversy now in the Catholic Church with the nuns and priests, romance has found a way. We can never legislate sex. It's too powerful of a drive for human fulfillment.

True, some black men enjoy the sexual conquest of white females. Yes, they enjoy the role of sexual "stud" or sexual slave to the highest bidder. Interracial sex in which the black male is a key component is a huge business. Some black men would rather subsitute their blocked opportunities to succeed in other areas of life by compensating being the supersex stud. It should come as no surprise that there are black men who are willing to set aside their souls for the "forbidden fruit" (white women) that was previously denied to them and get paid for it by rich white married females, and sex merchants than to worry about racial pride.

Frankie, we as men are competitive for women. It's my belief that the reason we go to war and fight each other is for women, along with wealth and power, which are inducements for more women. We are naturally defensive and protective of our women and will fight off competitors.

Yes, those black men who are the "creme da la creme" are highly sought after for their sexual power and endowments. For me, well, I would rather be pursued for my character and intellect, rather than for my loins.

Frankie, thanks for the article, "Is Love Colorblind?", by Steve Sailer. We are seeing a country being transformed before our eyes, and the sexual competition across racial lines is going to redefine what we are as Americans in the years to come. Look at the issue of pornography and sex that was liberated by Hugh Hefner's "Playboy" and look how far it has transformed our society from the bland 1950's to this day. The same will be said of interracial unions in the next fifty years. Boy! what a great time to be alive. ~ Roberto

By Roberto (64.12.106.32) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 01:56 am:

Frankie:

You bring up some interesting points that I wish to respond to. Time is not on my side here right now, but I will respond to your questions soon. Take care my friend. ~ Roberto

By Frankie (128.164.161.241) on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 03:24 pm:

Roberto,

What blows my mind about sexual harassment laws is that men are continuously told to treat women as mature equals, yet somehow, if they have sex in the workplace, it must be because she was coerced. Now you have some companies that make their employees sign “no dating fellow employee” contracts. You can’t legislate every aspect of male/female interaction.

I’m sorry to hear about the predicament you were put into. But one question I want to ask you is this - Black men complain about the stereotype that they are highly sexually skilled, but in truth, don’t many black guys kinda like this stereotype? It’s certainly more flattering than they crueler ones that have often been held. I’ve seen some black men, the donut-eating-watching-TV-all-day-brothers, who think this stereotype applies to their fat butts, and try to use it to hit on non-black women, who they think don’t know better.

Plus, sex is something all men can related to. We know that we all can’t be rich, or be a Nobel-prize winning scientist, or a skilled athlete, but men are extremely protective of their sexual reputation. We don’t all want to be regarded as being modern Casanovas, having a different woman every weekend. Indeed, some men go in the opposite direction, that they have loved only one woman their whole lives, and are proud of it. But even this guy would freak out if someone were to suggest that he was putting his woman’s feet to sleep. Truthfully, don’t a lot of black guys, particularly the good looking ones, get a thrill out of knowing they are considered the crème’ de la crème?

I thought you might be interested in the following articles. One is from Salon, and it talks about this topic from the white woman’s point of view, in a startingly frank manner. The other one asks whether there is some biological basis to some types of interracial couples occurring more often than others. But, when he talks about “Asians”, he is excluding Indians such as myself and other South Asians, and focusing on “Orientals”.

Black Stallions, Blonde Bombshells
http://www.salon.com/col/weav/1998/03/25weav.html

Is Love Colorblind?
http://www.nationalreview.com/14july97/feature.html


- Frankie

By Roberto (152.163.207.73) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 03:22 pm:

Frankie:

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I do not know how many times this issue has been brought up here and know one want to tackle it. I believe as you do this thing was so explosive that it would have caused much social unrest between blacks and whites in the military services, the fear that whites would have allowing their daughters to enter military service (the services are desperate in trying to keep white females in the services to offset the increasing number of minority females), and to keep the lid on a public that would demand accountability (something I know military officers would rather not be under the microscope).

What many people do not realize in that case, many white women came forth with the NAACP and said that they were pressured to testify against the black men. There were white men who were involved with the recruits, but that was quietly hushed. Those white women even gave a joint television interview with the NAACP. One beautiful white female who was carrying a black man's baby was pressured to have an abortion by her superiors. The father (a black man) wanted to marry her, but was threaten with inprisonment.

Frankie, On the issue of those women who do aggressively pursue men, I can tell you, I had my own experience with a powerful woman in a position of authority who once forced sex on me. It happens and wish people will open their eyes and stop pretending that women are the weaker sex. There are many kinds of power. Anybody ever heard of sexual power? ~ Roberto

By Frankie (128.164.161.252) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 10:45 am:

A couple of years ago, there was a series of cases where military drill instructors were having sex with young femaile recruits at Aberdeen. What was less publicized was that most of the accusers were white women, and the accused were black men. The accusers were interviewd on TV, profiled in magazines - everyone knew what they looked like. But almost no pictures were ever shown of the accused. Now, this can be read two possible ways. Either the media didn't think it was a big deal, or, they were afraid of what the mainstream reaction would be. I remember the NAACP asked that it be looked into, because white men in similar situations were allowed to resign, while these black guys were facing court martial.


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