Hey Modulis,

I have walked in your shoes, and still do to a certain extent. I am better at talking about "much of nothing," or small talk as it is more often called.

In my opinion, don't try to go after a certain race of woman. Try to go after what you are attracted to. It sounds like there are good looking women of all races that you are attracted to. It's just a matter of getting them to notice you.

Don't put down black women for your opinion that they only go after "thug types." You've got to keep the mental objectivity that not every woman likes that kind of style. Take a really good look around you and you will see that women like men of all types.

You have a good point on the why's of women and dating. Charles Hobbes said "Life is nasty, mean, and boorish." I think he wrote these words while dating. Work on what you can control, and give up trying to control what you cannot. You may never catch the eye of those women who constantly chase the tallest, the most muscled, the richest, the trendiest, etcetera. But outside of a night of massive sex, do you really want one of them? It seems you are looking for a woman with substance. They do exist, and are out there complaining about the same things you are.

By Zandii (65.5.128.100) on Sunday, April 22, 2001 - 12:56 am:

Modulis
Hey sweetie the part that caught me… is you are limiting yourself…If you are just getting your feet wet . I would recommend the clubs etc..on meeting women. At least you can experience the do's amd don't. and I really don’t think you should jump into a relationship date a few women have short term things…find out what you really like and don’t like. All women you are attracted to sister white women asian check em all out…. Also hun don’t go getting worried yet Because women are fickle creatures and once you are in that relationship you will be runnin your butt off worry about her. So all that energy save for then…giggle..youll need it;-). Love and pain are so very close. You are about to enter the funniest and most emotional part of your life. And I guarantee you there are plenty women out there who want a decent brother Dark light etc….coming from a snow bunny you have my vote for the last 15 years. Also the guys on here Im sure have lists of friendly IR cities. I would definitely recommend researching a career in those cities if you really want to explore IR relationships…The north is greatly different and if you put yourself in Friendly spots and deal with the other BS with your companion it will strengthen any relationship you have..IC on certain sites also is a good outlet…
If ya have any Q's you want to ask, sometimes that helps, because there are so many types of women on top of the attracted to factors..etc..Id be glad to answer any…

Take Care Hun. and good luck..
Zandii

By Browneyes (198.86.22.43) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 02:09 pm:

Hi Modulis-

Maybe I can give you a little insight that may be helpful to you, coming from a black woman.

Let me just tell you, the music you listen to, the way you dress, how you speak, and wherever you might live is not what determines how black you are. I'm sure you're proud to be who you are, but who cares if people look at you? I'm not trying to sound unsympathetic, but when I was dating my boyfriend who was white, we got that ALL the time. Black men would think it was out of spite, or because I thought I was too good, or whatever the case. Black women because they thought I fell off the deep end. White men because of... whatever. White women because... I can't even tell you. On top of that, our type of relationship is less popular than the white woman/black man type. I am an equal-opportunity-dater, I don't rule out by race, because good and bad and attractive and ugly come in every race, one no more than the next. However, you should realize that if you want to be with a white or whatever-she-may-be woman, you owe absolutely NO explanation to ANYONE for what you choose to do with your life if you're the only one that can live it.

As for black women, sure a lot seem to be into the 'thug' type, but a lot of them don't speak for all of us... for example, myself: I listen to some alternative and pop, 80's music, I don't speak that 'ghetto slang,' and I like and do a lot of things that are usually associated with the 'black' culture. Not saying that I don't, I'm very proud of who and what I am. I just have eclectic taste and I don't look for one certain type of person. I think you should feel better about yourself and realize that it's ok to be yourself. Wearing certain clothes and listening to certain music just to attract certain people isn't cool, because then you just become another carbon copy of what people think of as ideal... you can't change for other people.

I mean, so what if I'm not wearing FUBU? I'm no less black than I was when I was born. I'm still happy with ME. Being yourself is key in attracting the right person, because after a while, you won't have your own identity, but rather some persona you took up in order to please everyone else. You'd be surprised at just how many black women there are who are into your type. A real friend is going to accept the present as its been wrapped. Even with all the dents and cracks. Just be satisfied with who MODULIS is, and not who he isn't. :o)

By Modulis (216.249.84.86) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 09:33 pm:

Wyatt,

Sorry if I sounded like I was objectifying women by using terms like "chics" "blonde" "busty." That wasn't the intention. I am very respectful of women and I don't think these terms make one sexist or anything, most the women I know don't mind being called "chics" or "girls" so long as the guy isn't trying to be a jerk about it. It's just common use of language. And what's wrong with saying a girl is busty? You are not degrading her or anything. It's no different than if a girl said that I am muscular or have nice pecs or biceps. It's just a description. I think we tend to be a little to PC and sensitive about some things in our culture. But your points are taken.

Let me ask you something, since you come from the south and all. Do you ever feel any guilt as to why you like women women? Do you feel like you are turning your back on black women? Personally, I'm not really sure why I like them. As recently as 5 ago or so, I like black women and white women pretty much the same, but in the last few years, that has changed dramatically. I don't know what it is that got me into them. But somehow I just feel happier and more alive when I am in their presence. That sounds strange I know. And my mother would probably be hurt as a black woman if she heard me say that.

Roberto,

Thanks for the kind words. Every tells me that the right lady will walk in when I lease expect it. I only hope that is true. Your postings on this forum from what I have seem are the most interesting and insiteful. Thank You.

By Roberto (64.12.103.34) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

Modulis:

I once considered myself a social misfit, because I could not get a date during my younger years. My dear friend, never feel less in the eyes of others, look at yourself as a young man who have so much to share, so much to give. It will only be a matter of time when she will appear and be the right person for you. One day she will enter your life so unexpectedly, and when she does first and foremost treat her with respect and learn to compromise with your ego. You will make mistakes, but learn from them. Do not make the mistake that so any of us men make, not learning from our mistakes. Look beyond yourself and make her the center of your life, see her as a treasure that only comes once in a lifetime. Good luck my friend. ~ Roberto

By Wyatt (63.38.129.155) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 07:55 pm:

Hello Modulis,

First, a little hint-you are graduating and women are not chicks, ok brother. That squared, let me say that I understand your grief. You have been left with a bad scar and you have not had a real friend to console you or help you through this. I was born and raised in the South, and I was taught the rules. the dangerous perils of being interested in white girls. But I was also taught by my parents that a real man is brave, thinks for himself and doesn't let a spill off the horse end the ride. My father and my grand fathers were brave men, who fought the klan and racists in the south. The first blacks to move into all white neighborhoods, Some of the first wealthy negroes in Mississippi towns, voted and were well educated even during the worst of times. Like Winston Churchill said and my Grandfather repeated to me many times, "Never give up, Never give up, Never, Never, Never give up!" You had one actually very minor spills. A disapproving mother is nothing. A violent pack of teens is dangerous. The Klan is something. Bandage your little cut and keep on keepin on! You have to learn to stop worry, as I said before. People will stare if you are a single person walking down the street. If you are a black couple walking down the street. Stares are just stares. Learn to stare back. I was having lunch yesterday at Friendly's with a white female coworker in the working class part of town. This big mook of a white guys was staring dead in my face. so I looked at him smiled and said hey! He smiled and said hey right back. He was just a big ignorant SOB, but was no harm. The paranoia is real irrational. Sure make sure you don't drive around in a strange neighborhood. Or hang out with the wrong crowd,or drink and do drugs. But since you live in a very liberal area, then you need to stop putting up the walls.

One suggestion. Try to meet a nice, normal girl. Stop with the objectifying(blonde, busty, etc.) it isn't nice nor is it proper behavior for a gentleman. Always be a gentleman, whether you get dates or not. If you are sincere, not trying to get with a woman, kind, generous(not slick or smooth) and respectful(women are humans not poultry, open doors, pay for dates, don't expect sex in return, say kind things and be very polite to all parents then you are on the road to meeting a nice woman to date and maybe one day marry. But an independent, educated man like you should not be anticipating marriage at this age. You still have graduate or professional school. Dates and alot of learning about the world. If you are afraid of what people think it is not a good sign of being the protector in a marriage. You have to be courageous for your family.

One last thing. As a fellow southerner, who moved up North to go to graduate school. Try applying to graduate school in Western Mass., Upstate New York, Burlington, Vt, Madison, Wisc., Minneapolis, Mn, Portland, Oregon, Seattle, Wa., San Fran, Calif., Silicon Valley, Ithaca, NY or New York City. These are at least places where IR are tolerated or accepted.

By Modulis (216.249.81.119) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 04:36 pm:

Hi Wyatt,

As to what an INTP is here are some descriptions:
http://www.intp.org/description.html
http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

These links were posted in this forum. I'm glad I ran across them, because I actually understand myself a bit better now. Maybe you are one. It would't surprise me if many people in this forum are INTPs.

I've pretty much ruled out the club and bar scene as a way to meet girls. It's just too fast-paced, for a "nice guy," especially in the city I live in. I've been in school since 18, and I thought that it would be an ideal place to meet a girl for a serious relationship, or even a fiancee. It really tears me up inside that I didn't meet a single girl through my college years, not even go on a single date. One problem is that many of the girls I find that I do get that special interest for are already taken. It's like that saying,"girls are like parking spots, the best ones are always taken." These are my last few weeks in college and I was recently just taking a walk across campus to go to the store and thinking about it. I was looking at some couples walking around and became extremely depressed. I am at least an average-looking guy and would be good boyfriend material, yet have failed to hit it off with anyone.

You said something about worrying how other people would view me if i were in an IR couple. That is something I haven't really understood myself. My paranoia in this regard began only a few years ago. At one time I truly didn't care. I had hung out with a few white girls as just friends while living in the south a few years back. And to be honest, I really don't remember if we got stares, because at the time, I just didn't look for it, and wasn't really aware of it. I think the turning poing came a few years ago during this incident...
Two fellas had come to pick me up to go to the beach. One was white and one was black. On the way there, the white guy said,"I'm gonna be picking up some girls I met." And I thought, "cool, that's a pleasant surprise." So they were these two very good looking white girls, a gorgeous, busty blonde, and a cute brunette. So we had fun at the beach hanging with them and all that stuff, and I cannot even recall if me and the other black guy got stares when we were hanging with these white girls, because I didn't look for it. So then we all left and took the chics home. My friend's car was having some trouble and when we got to the girls house, he asked for some water to put in the radiator(this was the white guy's car). The blonde girl obviously came from a well-off suburban family as her home was very expensively looking. Her mom came out and saw that she just left the car and there were 2 black guys. She gave us this long, angry look with her hands on her hips, without ever saying anything, like she couldn't believe who her daughter was hanging with. Me and my black friend just looked at each other and we instantly knew what the deal was. Later on we talked about it and how rude that was and how pissed that made us that she obviously thought something negative because her daughter hung out with us that day, even though we are nice, decent people.

It seems as though that experience left a scar in my memory, and since then I notice every single little disapproval stare and double-take I get when I'm around white women. And not only do I notice it, but it actually stings. Even prior to the experience above, if someone had stared at me, I probably would've just though,"hmm...someone is looking at me" and forgot about it a half second later. But now, when I get the same looks, it actually hurts, and I really don't know what to do about it. I know I cannot do much to change society and its intolerance towards BM/WF, but if one can psychologically shield themselves from the annoying aspects such as the stares, double-takes and gawking, you can be okay. But someone I've lost my abiilty to do this. And I really want to get it back, but don't know how. I just want to be able to hang out with a woman and feel comfortable, and not the like the world around me is hostile. Maybe that's too much to ask, I don't know. But if the time does come and I do meet a white woman that doesn't have a boyfriend and there is some interest, if I don't have my s**t together psychologically, I'm going to blow it. Two weeks ago, this gorgeous white chic that looks very barbie-like with long wavy blondish hair, green eyes, a tall slender body and a beautiful face(she already has a boyfriend, by the way, but we could possibly became friends)wanted to walk across campus with me to the parking lot. And as pathetic as it sounds, I felt too uncomfortable and paranoid to even enjoy her company. I don't know why I'm like this, I'm a very rational person, and I am troubled that a major part of me is acting so irrationally.

By Wyatt (207.106.60.10) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 04:00 pm:

Modulis,

I hear you loud and clear. I am 35 years old, but when I was your age, I had a hard time and still do, chatting up women in bars, etc. Although people consider me gregarious, I can't make small talk, about things of no importance, especailly to a woman I am attracted to. I don't know what INTP means, could you tell us? But if it has to do with being an independent thinker, free and open minded, not limited to stereotypes or non-typical, then I am one.

One approach to meet women is to do things which you are not trying to pick up women. Just be yourself, go to poetry readings, art galleries and museums, get involved in political groups on campus, volunteer with other young people. bars are not real places, try hanging at hip coffee shops or bookstores or church and synagogue. Meet good women by doing good things, not getting drunk or being angry or nasty. I met all my girlfriends and my wife, by being very active in things helping people, being confident that I am not scared of what other people think and having courage and bravery and risk taking. Who cares what people think of you? You sound like you could care less on about what people think in other parts of your life, so why do you worry about what they think in you love life. You are young yet. Break the mold and don't let bogus race difference matter in your forward journey. Also don't think about the myths of sexual activities and the IR. It is false. We love each other like other normal relationships and sexuality is but one part of it.

By Wyatt (207.106.60.10) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 03:53 pm:

Modulis,

I hear you loud and clear. I am 35 years old, but when I was your age, I had a hard time and still do, chatting up women in bars, etc. Although people consider me gregarious, I can't make small talk, about things of no importance, especailly to a woman I am attracted to. I don't know what INTP means, could you tell us? But if it has to do with being an independent thinker, free and open minded, not limited to stereotypes or non-typical, then I am one.

One approach to meet women is to do things which you are not trying to pick up women. Just be yourself, go to poetry readings, art galleries and museums, get involved in political groups on campus, volunteer with other young people. bars are not real places, try hanging at hip coffee shops or bookstores or church and synagogue. Meet good women by doing good things, not getting drunk or being angry or nasty. I met all my girlfriends and my wife, by being very active in things helping people, being confident that I am not scared of what other people think and having courage and bravery and risk taking. Who cares what people think of you? You sound like you could care less on about what people think in other parts of your life, so why do you worry about what they think in you love life. You are young yet. Break the mold and don't let bogus race difference matter in your forward journey. Also don't think about the myths of sexual activities and the IR. It is false. We love each other like other normal relationships and sexuality is but one part of it.

By Modulis (216.249.85.48) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 12:55 pm:

Hi Ishvara. There was a discussion here about personality types. Someone posted links describing a personality type called INTP. I looked at it and realized that I was one of these as well. I wouldn't really describe myself as shy, I think "reserved" may be more accurate. I have little problem speaking in front a lot of people, are telling a stranger my view on some political issue or music. But I do get shy when it comes to talking to women at bars or clubs or any fast environment like that. I'd rather get to know a woman over time, that would be my preference. I could never ever see being the, "yo, what up, gimme yo digits" type. To me, having a good conversation is a prerequisite to asking a woman for her number.

By Ishvara (38.163.112.39) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 09:50 am:

I was quite touched by your post and the frustration behind it. I am a great believer in fate. What you learned from your experience just lends greater strength to your persons. I'm not sure what you've done or not done to meet people nor am I sure as to your personality. Are you real shy? Is it hard to talk to women?

By Modulis (216.249.73.172) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 04:36 am:

Hi all. I have been looking over all the discussions and debates and I must say I am quite impressed with the civility, depth and candor of the conversations I see here. I've been to other discussion sites and have seen so much trash it's pathetic. So kudos to you all for having such a cool environment for like-minded people to hang out.

Ok, here's my story. I am really in a very confused state over my life and where I am going. I am really trying to understand what it means to be a black man in America and how this will effect your life in subtle and not so subtle ways. In recent times I am particularly interested in how this manifests itself in relationships.

At this point in time, I feel as though I am being literally torn apart from the inside out from forces from every end. It is like there is a constant fight going on with me and I really have nowhere else to turn. I have come to the internet looking for clues and perspective from others to understand whether I am an oddity or my experience fits some sort of pattern.

I am a young black male age 24. I am just about finished with college. Although I would not rule out dating any woman based upon her race, I do have a VERY strong preference for white women and mixed black-white women. I am in a predicament that very few men are in. I am in my mid-20s and I have never had a relationship with a woman in my life. Not of any sort. As much as I have longed to walk down the beach with a woman I love and watch the sunset, it has not happened. As much as I have wanted to walk under an umbrella on a rainy day with a woman I am in love with, it has not happened. I would love to be married someday and I am not sure this will ever happen given how far behind I am. I have asked myself many times over the last few years if my race could have played any role in any of this. You see, I have not been attracted mostly to white females all my life, this has only been in the last couple years(but remember I am not exclusively into white women, just a very strong preference, I think there are some damn gorgeous black, Hispanic and Asian women). I seem to be finding a pattern I must say. It seems that whenever I hear from more intellectual, reserved, refined type black men, they seem to have some sort of trouble attracting black women. As if black women are fixated on a certain type of black man. I have had friends that are not black tell me that they too notice that I am not the type of black guy that most black women go for. That when there is that one black guy in school that the black girls want, he is ususally of a certain variety. More likely to be athletic, wears FUBU, is into Cisqo and Lil' Kim and that sort of thing. That's all good to me, whatever floats their boat. I am far from being this type of black guy however.

Not only do I have this intraracial dynamic working against me, but there is the interracial dynamic. Contrary to all this stuff you hear about white women being crazy over black guys and what not, I honestly think only a very small percentage of white women will take a black man seriously. Especially the darker he is, and especially if the white woman is attractive or in anyway desirable herself. Even if they themselves are not put-off by black men, they may be scared away from family and social pressures. Hispanics are notorious for being biased against relationships with darkskinned people and blacks in particular and Asians aren't exactly running to be in relationships with blacks either. I feel as though the whole racial dynamic is working against me from every direction. That being black in America simply carries no advantage whatsoever. Sometimes I wish I did speak ebonics, wear the FUBU and sports clothes that many black men do and was into Puff Daddy and all that stuff, because I would probably at least attract black women. As I get older, this is bothering me more and more. Because I have so much catching up to do with relationships, and I would like to be married perhaps by 30. I walk around and I see people in relationships all the time. Everytime I walk around campus and see a man and a woman together, I am constantly reminded of my loniness, constantly reminded that I have not experienced what they have experienced. Reminded that I can't talk to a woman of ANY race without being at some kind of a disadvantage. The last month or so my feelings have intensified to the point that this is the last thing I think about at night and the first thing I think about in the morning. I feel as though psychologically, I must resolve this soon or I am going to self-destruct. The only thing that has helped me is that my best friend, also a black man is in the identical situation I am in. So being able to confide in someone that has gone through your experience helps a lot. But both of us are clueless as to what we can do and to what extent race may play a role in our lonliness. I have been told that I am a nice-looking guy(I'm probably in the average range). I am very curteous, most people think I am interesting as a personality once they get to know me, I dress pretty fashionably (although not in the FUBU hiphop style).

And here is another issue to throw in. Even if I do manage to date a white woman, I am extremely bothered by all the dirty looks and staring. When I am just talking to white women as friends on campus, I notice that even in this so-called liberal environment, I am constantly getting looks and stares from people, then I start feeling very uncomfortable and shy. And I actually live in what is considered a very "tolerable and liberal" part of the country. Everytime someone stares, I know they are thinking, "what is she doing with him." And I get angry thinking about how fundamentally racist that is. So even though I like white women a lot, if I have one I am still not going to feel welcome or comfortable anywhere I go in public. So you might ask, why don't I just go for non-white women? Like I said, I haven't ruled it out. But right now, I am attracted to white women 90% of the time. There's just something about their skin that just looks so soft, smooth and creamy. It drives me nuts! And because of my personality, the way I talk, the music I listen to, the things I like to do, etc., it is usually white women that are "my type" personality-wise anyhow.

It's interesting that I have read stories in this site about black men with mannerisms like myself often not dating at all. I am trying to tie all the loose ends together, connect the dots and see what the hell is happening here. If I can understand the patterns, maybe I can understand why I am in the situation I am in. Why do some black guys attract many black women, and some attract none. Why do some black guys attract many white women and some attract none. I'm just here hoping to hear opinions and insites from an obviously thoughtful and intelligent group of people here that are interested in all aspects of interracial dating.

Thanks for listening. I really hope I don't sound whiny, I'm trying my best to help myself out of this predicament.