Wyatt I can understand exactly what you are saying and even agree on a certain level. I however feel that it is not my place to judge others behaviors, I haven't walked their shoes. I don't know their mind. I believe good and evil are parts of the same whole. Without one as contrast the other wouldn't exist. I try to understand acts in each unique situation, I feel uncomfortable making blanket statements and labeling. I feel that God has a divine plan not for any of us to know complete. Yes many acts are horrid but I'm not interested in making a value judgement on those, what's BAD or whats GOOD doesn't matter in the end, it's what is learned or gleaned from the experience. I just love irregardless, compassion, gentleness, empathy I feel are much more important.

By Wyatt (207.106.60.190) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 11:47 am:

Ishavara,

I agree with you, I despise it for the same reasons and because it is a moral ill in our society. Why can't we judge the behavior as being bad, though? What are we afraid of to call it a horrid act? Like hate and terrorism or murder or rape, what are you afraid of making a value judgement on evil? polygymy and gender control are evils as acts, but we can change the hearts of humans through love which will change the behaviors. So don't be afraid to make a judgement on acts, just not on people. Like I have said before, I despise the act of homsexual, but I love the heart, soul and person who is the homosexual. The same goes for the polygamist.

By Ishvara (38.163.112.117) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 08:55 am:

Wyatt, I don't like polygamy as it stands b/c of the position the women are put into, not b/c I am making a value judgement on it. I don't like being considered the "weaker" sex nor do I like it when men get privileges women don't have a right to. The wrongness with polygamy stems directly from powerlessness felt by many women forced from childhood into that kind of lifestyle. Read some literature on that subject a while back, was outraged and still am.

By Roberto (152.163.194.181) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 10:35 pm:

Kansascity:

When the Berlin Wall came down it ended the Cold War for me. It was the beginning of the end for my military career. We went from cold war warriors to peacekeepers under President Clinton. I hated that. President Reagan was my hero and Bush was "so so". The invasion of Panama (my wife's home country) is the only credit I will give Bush. ~ Roberto

By Roberto (205.188.197.56) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 10:06 pm:

Kansascity:

You mentioned earlier in this thread that you came of age in the 1960's in which some of your dreams were circumvented. Exactly when in the sixties was this critical to you? For me "1968" was mindboggling. It really opened my eyes to a political civil war in this country. I could not believe at the time the things that were happening. I had people in my neighborhood who went to Vietnam, but were coming back dead, the Tet Offensive was scary, the killings of King and Kennedy, and the Democratic Convention riot showed how dangerous we nearly went over the edge politically. The riots that blew up following king's death (my mother and I were caught in the middle of that explosion that night). All of this opened my eyes to the insanity that this country was going through.

Kansascity, we come from a time that we can relate on many things. 1989 was another year of unprecedented change for me. I was in Germany at the time (Air Force in Europe) when the Berlin Wall came down (I even have a piece of the wall when I visited Berlin). But what was fascinating to see that lead up to that event was one Warsaw Pact nation after another falling and the people breaking over the borders over in Eastern Europe.

Kansascity, 1968 and 1989 are time periods that stand out for me and made me critically aware of the world and how it affected me. ~ Roberto

By Roberto (64.12.105.26) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 09:18 pm:

Kansascity:

Aside from the music CD's that you had a concern about, I think the video games that are borderline as simulator killing tools should be watched too. I peg these seven to watch out for:

(1) Silent Scope (Sniper training)

(2) Quake (A follow on to Doom)
Note: Doom is used by the U.S. Marine Corp and Ranger Units for commando training.

(3) Time Crises

(4) Soldier of Fortune

(5) House of the Dead

(6) King Pin (Gang Warfare Training)

(7) Carnevil (firing of a shotgun)

Take care Kansascity. ~ Roberto

By Roberto (205.188.196.21) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:01 pm:

Kansascity:

For historical accuracy I stand corrected. The 100 Black Men Organization was chartered in 1986, not 1996 has I have indicated. ~ Roberto

By Roberto (205.188.196.21) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 06:54 pm:

Kansascity:

Issue One:

Well, we know now the fate of young Nathanial Brazile. His comment "not bad" in response to the jury decision hardly surprised me. It is indicative of the false "black male machismo" that is so indoctrinated in the young black male as a defense mechanism. Life will not be kind to him. When he reaches eighteen years of age and is released to the general prison population he will be raped and then he will have to fight and perhaps kill again, just to survive in that hellish enviornment.

Yes, Kansascity, there must be some way or answer to rehabilitate children brought up in circumstances that leads to self destruction. Here in Virginia I'm with a group called the 100 Black men, which is a chapter affiliated with the 100 Black Men of America Inc, a nationwide organization chartered in 1996 by a coalition of black professionals wanting to improve the lives of minority children by supporting legislation and developing educational, scholarship and cultural programs. Here, a group of black professional black men whose occupation ranges from doctors, lawyers, retired military servicemen, consultants, teachers, executives, directors and yes politicians (my congressman is part of the group) formed this chapter in 1991. I hope in time I can make a difference, if god is willing to give me a few more years.

The African American male is in crises from failing school achievements, dropout rates, AIDS infections, homicides, unemployment and low self esteem. I cannot sit at the side and complain and not offer some solutions to solve problems.

Issue Two:

Multiple marriages, I do not agree with it (OK Ishvara). Kansascity you made sense in so many of your statements. Let me boil it down to this without having to go through each of them as I would have. Kansascity, the fact that your parents were together for 52 years (amazing) said it all to me. Although as you pointed out your dreams were deferred, the model that your parents left you was such an imprint that it has given you a tradition that even persist in you and it has shown that its proven as a desired outcome if we can all hope to reach it (long life with the one you love), but never the less, its the stability, the trust, the continuity and passing on the family values that makes traditional marriage (one man and one woman) the ideal.

Although marriage is changing as more people are living together unmarried, it does not change the fact that the duality of a man and woman relationship is the way to go. Thank you Kansascity. ~ Roberto

By Wyatt (63.48.110.35) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 04:38 pm:

While I don't condone polygymy and find it disgusting, immoral and just wrong. However, I have a problem with people who think that polygymy is immoral and wrong, yet think homosexuality is not. We can't judge one group and not judge another group. We know one behavior is not proper behavior, let us call all immoral, disgusting behvior wrong. But we can still love and care for the people and still call bad behavior bad!!!!

By Roberto (64.12.102.179) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 11:29 pm:

Kansascity:

You made some good points and I want to address each. Right now I'm very tired, and have a splitting headace. I'm not thinking clearly right now. It has been a very rough day. I will get back to you soon. Take care Lady. ~ Roberto

By Roberto (152.163.195.209) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 07:32 am:

Kanasascity:

I'm running late for work. I will get back with you this evening. Excellent. Thank you for this response. This is why I appreciate a woman's way of thinking. ~ Roberto

By Kansascity (209.242.125.14) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 01:05 am:

1. What happened to Nathanial Brazil?

Our SOCIETY needs to be rehabilitated to save children from this sort of ending to their own life after they take the life of another. Nathanial Brazile has alot of time to think if he lives. But, executing him would be even more barbaric because I see him as a victim of circumstances (as was the teacher) beyond his/their control. His/their so called CHOICES no doubt were few in that particular environment.

What if Nathanial Brazil was unable to bond with his mother that may be why he has turned out to be a socio/pychopath. Maybe his mother was not able to give him what he needed because she wasn't... or had never gotten what she needed to enable her to bond with her child.

There are some teacher's who single out children at school to torment, telling them that they are bad and no-good. The teacher who this boy killed was not the type of teacher to ridicule, humiliate and demean his students from the way he was portrayed in court during the hearing (I heard over the radio).

Was the teacher in the wrong place at the wrong time when this young boy lost it? Maybe he got to close? Finally, if this teacher (what is his name) was a Christian he would have forgiven Nathanial Brazil for his tragic action against him.
I'm thinking of that verse "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".

Adults have responsiblities to teach children right from wrong. But that is harder to do in a society that promotes violence and doing wrong in the media and elsewhere.
It is a constant battle that parents have to wage agaist the counter-culture to which their children are exposed to on a daily basis.
For example, (I have thrown away hundreds of dollars worth of gansta/heavy metal etc..little kim CD's). And have had to do much more to counteract such sinister enfluences and do damage control which has made my job as a mother alot harder than it had to be.

So many children are not getting what they really need to go on living productive lives. So, they band together and form their own way of life when left to their own defenses.
I wonder what the school was like where this tradgedy happened.


2. Polygamy was necessary in old-testament times/places for basic survival. Are we headed in that direction again? Are we going backwards to the ...... or are we, can we move forward to better days and nights?

My own father considered that lifestyle, but he never acted on it...My parents have been married for 52 years. I am the oldest of nine children. At an early age, I became a CO-MOTHER/HOMEMAKER before ever having my own children to mother and create a home for. I have taken care of children all my life. I love kids.

I thought while growing up that having a husband, children and a home was within my reach...but it was just a dream...an ideal....that never quite transpired the way it was suppose to. I came of age during the 60's. That time of turmoil combined with my own personal circumstances very effectively destroyed many of my dreams...but not all of them.
In my heart, I have always believed what I learned when I was young. I attended Catholic schools and was taught by the nuns who are excellent teachers.
A man and woman mate for life. Only if one of them passes on (from natural causes) would either one be free to marry again.
(Or, if the male or female in a marriage betrays their mate by being with another, that is grounds for leaving and divorce).
Many people who have lost their mates for either reason remain alone because they do not want another. Many remain celibate. Often that is the wisest thing to do. But, that would not mean their life is over or that they no longer have a purpose.

Women who have to share one man among themselves often posses all sorts of problems. Their is jealousy and favoritism. Some men would abuse their power and pit one wife against the other. Imagine the impression this would have on the children conceived in such an arrangement. This hardly makes for a happy family life. It would create war down the road.

If one man has many women, it spoils the chances for other men to find their mate. How could polygamy contribute to a stable and satisfying community life? And, if something happens to that one man, nobody else in the community would be in a position to take on the support and care of the women and children. They would be left to their own defenses.

No, polygamy is out! There is more to LIFE than having a stable of females at your beck and call. It may make you feel like a king, but the queens might poison each other.
Is it good for the kids. NOPE! Lets try to bring back traditional FAMILY VALUES! That is what children are needing and wanting from all of us.

There are many ways that women working together can help and emotinally support each other with the raising of their children, but they should not be subjected to sharing one man.

The elders in the old family structure use to be the ones who arranged marriages for their children. And that was a good thing when they did it with good intentions. They often knew best who would be right for their sons and daughters. The system often worked. Too bad we can't get back to doing things this way.

Also, in many old-style families, the children were brought into the family businesses and apprenticed at young ages. That way children learned responsibility and their importance to the survival of their family.
They matured at a younger age and acquired many skills from their main teachers: father, mother, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins...all working together to hold the family together.

The elders..both the male and female.... were respected and more often listened to because of their wisdom and age.

By Roberto (205.188.192.49) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 10:13 pm:

Ishvara:

Issue One

The kid was a killer period. He deserves punishment period.

Issue Two

It's an issue that is part of the national discussion. This site should not be "touchie feelie" only. If women in this country want their cherish rights to remain intact, then you better damned well know the trends good or evil that can take it away. Ishvara, I'm surprised of you. ~ Roberto

By Roberto (205.188.192.49) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 10:07 pm:

Modulis:

Issue One

I would agree that the majority of fatherless children in black communities may not bring a gun to school to kill their teachers,(many do bring guns for personal defense though), but many do bring a culture of behavior that is manifested in an undisciplined, dysfunctional family structure that has created a monster. When the rule of behavior is to disrupt, lack respect for authority, early programming in seeing every white person (teachers) as the enemy, lack of motivational desire to learn, then is it any wonder why there is this false belief that black children cannot learn and will always rank at the bottom of the social and educational achievement scale compared to other groups, based on national statistics, if you believe statistics do not lie.

Issue Two

America is primarily a white Christan nation since its founding. True what we call a crime against children in this country is accepted in many nations of the world (probably why so many hate us). I find it interesting as the demographics of this nation changes, with more immigration from those countries who do not share our values, or are willing to learn it, who see women different than we do here, I do see an impact on the social way of life here. Since schools and the institutions we had in the past no longer emphasize to new immigrants what it means to be an American and many refuse to speak the official language or learn the history of this country. We will see a change in the religious, culture and values in the years to come that will make this argument a moot point. The factor that unified us on the beliefs that you mentioned Modulis will fray. As the traditional mainstream society becomes a minority by the end of this century, who knows what will replace it. Look at California, Florida and Texas. Many immigrants from societies (especially Africans) do practice the dreaded "P" word that Ishvara wish would not be discussed here, then your way of life will change without you having any input. Change is constant. You cannot stay asleep. ~ Roberto

By Ishvara (4.54.118.127) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:26 pm:

Bravo Modulis. There are so many things wrong with polygamy. Isn't that man in trouble b/c one of this wives was 13 when the relationship started? Things like polygamy further strip women of hard won respect, we've fighting for equality for a long time now and institutions like that further demean women. I for one am sick of it and wonder why you Roberto have brought this point up again. Do you think it is right?

A 13 year olds brain is not fully developed, their thinking capacity is not that of an adult and I don't think thet should be treated the same.

By Modulis (216.249.81.119) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 03:48 pm:

Issue one:

I wouldn't say he is "typical" of fatherless black kids as the majority of them do not kill their teachers. But I do think the proliferation of single motherhood in the black community is responsible in large part for disproportionate amount of crime in the black community.

Issue two:

We are a de facto Judeo Christian society. In some countries what we would call child rape is acceptable as well. If a 15 year old consents to sex with an adult, we consider that criminal even though it was mutually agreed upon. Should we also legalize sex between adults and children if it is consensual? Tampering with the time-tested institution of 1 man-1 woman marraige isn't something I want to play around with.

By Roberto (152.163.204.176) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 12:59 pm:

Issue One: Nathaniel Brazile, (the then 13 year old) kid who without remorse shot and killed his teacher. As a woman what do you think his fate should be as a penalty? I favor life in prison. The tear jerkers are working to try to plead mercy for him. You do not have to say sorry anymore, just shed a tear to get sympathy, which he has, but quickly went back into his "so what attitude". This kid now 14 has shown no remorse even now. If he is let go he will kill again. He is typical of the black male youth you see today from homes in which there is no father.

Issue Two: Tom Green, the man in Utah, who has five wives and is being taken to court to be tried for having more than one wife. As far as I know he has been excommunicated from the Mormon Church. But the Mormon Church is quiet on this issue. If a man can support more than one wife, whose right is it to tell him that he cannot have more than one partner. Many societies in this world practice polygamy. In America, with the scarcity of healthy men of all colors and the emergence of AIDS, in particular, why cannot a man for instance have more than one woman, (if he can afford them) to propagate his lineage and preserve the human species from a plague like AIDS. This is a new era, that may need an old solution to a new problem. What do you think?

~ Roberto