At the risk of being looked upon as a "Johnny come lately" I want to way in on the "Fran" issue of black men who sound "white". First of all I'd like to say that I am not offended by her frankness and honesty, I am however offended (perhaps too strong a word) at the arrogance of a person who assumes that what is grammatically correct should be reserved for a certain race, namely the white race. Bryant Grumble does not, in my opinion, talk "white", he instead talks "right". I have heard discussion of culture and upbringing, that Bryant was raised in a middle class Chicago suburban neighborhood, (the insinuation being I assume, that he was raised around white people and thus, speaks what you refer to as being "white". My problem with that is the following; I am sure that there are other black men from the same neighborhood that do not speak as eloquently or as educated as does Bryant Grumble, and believe me, I am not a Grumble fan. In other words, culture and upbringing no doubt plays a part in how a person talks and communicates, but how a person ultimately talks and communicates can be influenced by his level of education as well as his own personal awareness of his communicative skills as well as the image he chooses to project. To buy into the logic that Fran proposes is also to buy into the notion that ebonics is a good thing. We as a race of people by and large, although not exclusively, came to this country on slave ships and speaking another language entirely. It has taken generations to weed out the influences of the "original languages" spoken by or ancestors, as well as the mechanisms put in place during slavery times that prevented our ancestors from learning how to speak educated or indeed even learning to read. Bryant, is of the generation that has had the benefit of time and its "weeding" effects to have eliminated the "black" speech patterns that are still stereotypically associated to black men. By way of example, Hispanic people that are relatively new to this country speak a brand of English that is comparatively as bad as that spoken by blacks that speak in what is termed as ebonics. We do not however, say that a Hispanic that weeds out the effects that his natural tongue has on the english language and learns to speak correctly as "talking white", no he is simply talking "right" as is Bryant Grumble. Do I believe Bryant Grumble to be the typical black male, no, but then again, neither do I see myself as being the typical black man. And for that matter, what is the "typical" black man? It is our diversity of character and of personality that sets us apart from ALL other men of any race. I understand what Fran was trying to convey, unfortunately her poor choice of words obscured the point she was trying to make, which is that she is attracted to a certain type of black man. Grumble is not the "bad boy" type of black man that many white women seem to be attracted to, but that does not make him any less of a black man than it makes that former Chicago bull player with the tattoos, (who shall remain nameless) any more of a black man because of his poor speech and "bad boy" antics. Will Smith is a perfect example, he speaks "right" although not "white", the difference in Smith and Grumble is simply a difference in personality and style. If Grumble adopted the style of Will Smith and changed nothing else about himself would he be any more or less black or white? No, of course not, so it comes down to personality and not speech, doesn't it? Is Grumble a little nerdy? Most definitely, but he is without doubt a black nerd. By the way, what do you think of Colin Powell, Fran?

By Anon2000 (208.187.244.110) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:08 pm:

wyatt, why don't you just realize that frangiapani PREFERS bm who are NOT like bryant gumball? that's what i'm reading from it anyway...

By Cma (216.249.73.218) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:05 pm:

Aarm,

I guess I'll slip a post in here. I haven't seen you in here up till a few days ago, but I like what you have to say.

A couple years ago, there was this white valley girl I worked with. I dropped her off at home once when something was wrong with her car. She told me that "You're not that black me." She was comparing me to one of our supervisors who comes from the deep south of Louisiana who was very ethnic in speech and demeanor as many blacks from the south are. I didn't take it offensively at all, I thought it was funny more than anything, certainly nothing to get bent out of shape over. I do think people can get too wrapped up in worrying about how "black" or how "white" people act, like you said, people are a product of their environment, I don't expect a black kid raised in the suburbs to act like he's from Watts or Harlem.

Someone said that Kobe Bryant sounds black and that it is his natural voice. But from what I heard, he had difficulty understanding black speech when he came here from Italy. He sounds black to me now, but that's probably because he's more involved in black culture than he was when he first came to Philly. I heard he was even going to cut a rap album.

Fran, I don't think you are prejudice either. Just like I'd go bonkers for a girl with any type of European accent yet I wouldn't like a Vietnamese or a ghetto accent. There is no right or wrong here, just a matter of personal taste in what we're into.

By Aarm (216.104.228.150) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 11:49 am:

Fran - Well said... Not to worry, I dont think you are prejudiced or racist. I am sure this experience will atleast help you to be more cognizant regarding what you say around some types of people. I really cant see myself being offended if someone said that I dont act/sound black (even though no one has ever said this to me). I have taken the attitude that if/when someone says something like that then I first make an effort to determine if the statement is being said out of malice or ignorance. If I can tell it is out of ignorance (which it seems to be more often than not) then I try to use the situation as an opportunity to educate the person rather than taking offence. If it seems that some statements are said out of malice or ill-will then I usually ignore the person. After all, people who are rascist are the ones with a problem, not us.

Frankie, I moved to the US when I was 12 and I have been here ever since. I have been back a few times for visits, but I would not consider myself much of an authority on all things Trinidadian. That being said, I have also heard the same things you are describing regarding the racial tension that arises during election times. The last time I was there was the winter break before I finnished college. I visited bars and clubs with my cousins and everything seemed quite integrated. There is a significant amount of intermixing that goes on. I suppose its just that when things get tough during elections, some people in prominant places let their true colors show. Overall I would say that the environment is quite tolerant.

Sheri, to answer your question regarding BM attraction to WW: speaking for myself, I will say that it is difficult to put into words. The reason is that, unlike most of the BM on the board, I dont have a preference for WW, nor for BW. I just like women. I find women from all races/ethnicities equally attractive. I begin to differenciate when it comes to how the individual woman carries herself as well as her physical beautity and sex-appeal. The only thing I feel I must have from any woman I date is that she must not be obese nor skinny. I prefer a more athletic/healthy look. Some examples of popular white women I am attracted to are: Annabella Sciorra (from "JungleFever" coincedently), Raquel Welch (when she was in her prime), Britney Spears (just her body and face, she needs to mature more), Julia Stiles (from "Save the Last Dance"), Barbara Eden (from "I Dream of Jeannie" also when she was in her prime). Thats just a few to give you an idea.

Layta,
AARM

By Wyatt (207.106.60.3) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 10:30 am:

Fran,
I do understand that you don't like Bryant Gumbel or men like him, but that is still not the point. He is not acting white or black, he is black! Also, there are plenty of black men who are nowhere near Bryant Gumbel, but not street either. There are men who are Afro-centric; men who are artsy; men who are country and are good ole boys; there are hip hop blacks; gang banging, blacks; lawyer, banker, physician(professional blacks); black geeks, black players; black jocks(Billy Blanks, Reggie White and Allen Iverson-are three examples and they are totally different from each other). Blacks men come in all shape, sizes, hues and attitudes. To pigeon hole black men to ones who are like Bryant Gumbel and ones who are like D'Angelo is offensive. We are as different as white men are different. There are whites who are called wiggers, there are others who are very white bread and others who are cosmopolitan and yet another type is very outdoorsy.
Fran, I am not saying that you are racist. I am saying that when you make a blanket statement that is so black and white(pardon the pun), you forget that there are blacks of a whole spectrum of behaviors, ideas, beliefs, principles and political viewpoints. It is offensive when I am a black person who gets told by a white person that I am not acting black. What is acting black? That statement is derrogatory and offensive.

By Frankie (128.164.161.243) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:46 am:

AARM,

Since you are from Trinidad, I'd like to ask you a question. How are relations between the black and Indian populations there? I've heard that sometime at elections, things can get testy - but I'm more interested in the day to day interactions between the two groups.

By Frangiapani (139.134.88.103) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 07:18 pm:

Its not that I am judging wether or not a Black man is acting too white or too black. Im saying Im not attracted to a man like Bryant Gumble. Maybe that is being racist, but thats just how I feel. Even if a white man acted like Bryant Gumble It would turn me off!!
I just dont see the point in pretending there isn't a difference. Otherwise why do you like white woman? Is it just because of their appearance? or the way they are? You cant tell me that black and white women act the same, thats why your on this site to begin with.

By Aarm (216.104.228.147) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 04:47 pm:

Wyatt, perhaps I can come up with some better examples.

Imagine you had a child with a Japanese woman 20yrs ago. The child was born in NYC and shortly after his birth his mother left you and moved back to Japan. Somehow you lost contact with them and 20 years went by without a word. Suddenly today you receive a call from a 20 year old man claiming to be your son. What type of accent do you think your son will have after living 20 years of live in Japan? Will he most likely speak/sound like an American or a Japanese?
Most likely he will sound Japanese, even though he was born in America and one of his parents is American.

Another example: after I had been living in the US for a couple years after arriving here from Trinidad, I returned for a visit and when I spoke all my family said that I sounded like an American, a Yankee. Clearly, I was still Trinidadian, but after living in NYC for a while my accent and some mannerisms changed to sound like a New Yorker. This has even gone so far as that even today if I speak to someone on the phone they (with few exceptions) would have difficulty telling I am from Trinidad, they would assume that I was American by the way I speak. So, in other words, they had in their mind a blueprint for what somewone from the West Indies should sound like. Yet, when I spoke my diction/accent does not match that blueprint. I dont sound like they expect. Thus, the statement is often made: "You dont sound like a Trinidadian". To which I reply, "Thats becasue I grew up here in the US".

Lets look at it from another angle: Perhaps Fran wasnt talking about mannerisms or accent, or the use of slang, but instead she was reffering to the actual SOUND of the voice of a black man. This concept, too, is legetimate and would not warrant anyone being offended. I submit to you the example of Africans from different regions of the continent. On the east you have most of the men with voices that are high pitched when compared with men from the west coast like Nigeria or Ghana. Still, whether they be from the east or west, they are still black men. It is easy to observe that men from the west African countries tend to have deeper voices than most other African men do. Coincidentally, most BM in the US are decendents from slaves who were primarly from West Africa. Thus, a solid case can be made that there is indeed a way that many BM sound that is different from WM, and a few BM. This is why an articulate individual like Kobe Bryant, despite growing up around mostly whites, has a voice that is easily distinguishable as being that of a BM.

I recognize that not all BM have voices that sound like this. Some BM have higher pitched voices. For example: Mike Tyson; if it were not for his accent and slang it would be easy to imagine him as not being black if one heard his voice alone. Yet, we all know that he is still black and no one would accuse him of not being black - at least not to his face - but he cant help the way his voice sounds.

A final example: There are some women who sound like men. This doesnt negate the fact that they are women. Many men would not be attracted to this type of woman because these men have a blueprint in their minds as to how a woman should sound/or act. Are men wrong for not being attracted to women who sound like this? Its a subjective decision, there is no right or wrong and there is no need for a woman who has a mannish voice to be offended if a man, or a woman for that matter, miskates them over the phone for a man.

Do you see my point now? Its simple as that. This is what I think Fran was talking about. However, I cant be sure since she hasnt commented on this in a while. In essence: Fran has in her head her blueprint for what a BM sounds like. It is none of our business to challenge her blueprint especially since we know it is valid that different populations of people tend to sound alike when they are logistically in close proximity or are from a particular ethnic origin. If Fran is constantly exposed (via mass media and other venues) to a particular group of the Black Male population then it is reasonable for her to develop a blueprint for what Black Men sound like based on her individual exposure which may be different from others. This does not make her insensitive, or rascist (especially since by her own admission she prefers BM). Mind you, I am not negating the fact that there may be some generalization on Fran's part, but its certaintly not enough to put her feelings toward race into question.

I apologise to the group for being a bit long winded, but I felt it was important that I clarify.

Until next time...
AARM

By Wyatt (207.106.60.181) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 02:16 pm:

Aarm,

Not to be disrespectful, but Fran's preference for BM who act black is a slight and a racist attack on my integrity. I am a black man, sir, and it is offensive to me that a white person can determine whether I am black or not based on my language usage and behavior and mannerism. What is "acting black" Sir? I get up every morning and I wash my black skin, comb my black hair, and drag my black butt off to work. When I get yelled at and called a Ni*&^r, I am still black. When I am isolated and not accepted I am still black. When my girlfriend or wife is disowned because of my skin color, I am still black. I am not speaking with white tongues, or laughing with white smiles. I am not doing anything white, I am black sir!!!! Everytime a person stereotypes blacks for being successful or doing well or speaking with proper diction and using proper behavior, as acting white, this is a racist affront to all blacks. We are who we are black men. We are not different from each other and we act as we are-people. Our skin color doesn't determine our actions, sir.

By Aarm (216.104.228.147) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 01:52 pm:

Anon2000, thank you. Yes, I am from Trinidad.

Wyatt, as far as WW being apprehensive about dating outside their race, I think it has more do do with peer pressure and the risk of being ostracised by family and friends. I firmly believe that most WW would be willing to become romantically involved with non-WM (BM in particular)if American society were more accepting of it. What needs to happen is a few popular brave WW in Hollywood should "come out of the closet" and date a BM publically. This would embolden the average WW to explore the possibilities herself. We already know of a few WM who date/marry interracially: Robert Deniro, Quentin Tarrentino, Shadow Stevens, etc; and we have those who are still "in the closet": Warren Beaty, Hugh Grant, for example. Its clear that this society (WM in general) finds it more tasteful when a WM is paired with a BW than when a BM is with a WW.

Rascism is clearly more entrenched in the fabric of this society than most will admit. Things are getting better but there is still a ways to go. It takes a few brave individuals (popular and grass roots) to get the ball rolling.

AARM

By Ishvara (208.37.106.68) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 12:57 pm:

I understand better in describing mannerism and speach not inherent qualities, I can see that as being true. I thought she meant it as qualities people are able to express as being held by one group or the other.

By Anon2000 (208.187.245.164) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 10:01 pm:

welcome, aarm
would you by any chance be a trini?

By Melirosa (208.48.12.163) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 03:51 pm:

aarm-
i agree with you somewhat. i can understand what you are saying because i was also born and raised in the bronx and the whites did act like the majority of the people do in the bronx. i am puerto rican. people are a product of their enviroment, i believe. if you were raised in "the hood" you are going to have a tendancy to act as those do in your enviroment regardless of your race.

By Aarm (198.81.230.200) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 02:25 pm:

Gents,

I believe you all are being a bit hard on Fran. I am a black male of mixed origin (East Indian, African, White), and I understand what Fran means when she says that she is not attracted to BM who sound like WM. Its the same thing for those of you who are not attracted to WW who sound/act like BW. None of her statements were anything to get even slightly offended by. I submit by experience of growing up in the West Indies and the Bronx: In grade school there were often white boys and girls who were in the minority. As a result of growing up in "tha hood" many of them exhibit african-american/hispanic cluture more so than they do white culture. They are products of their environments who are not faking nor do they have a fetish. As a result of this they can be correctly described as white people who sound/act like their peers who happen to be black/hispanic. There is nothing wrong with that.

Similarly, Bryant Gumble, and some of you on this board, grew up in circumstances wherin the dominant culture was different than that which many blacks in this country experienced. Thus, when classifying Gumble's speech or his mannerisms it is more appropriate to designate his overall demeanor as being white. There is nothing wrong with this either. He, like many of you, is a product of his environment. This is what I believe Fran was trying to say. I dont want to put words in your mouth, Fran, nor do I wish to speak for you, but I thought these comments would help clarify.

Now as far as her prefernece for men who act black, then this is her subjective opinion that really should not be a point of debate.

Also, it is arrogant to believe that just because an individual lacks a voluminious vocabulary or a less than firm hold on english grammar and syntax, that the said individual is is unworthy of intellegence being ascribed to him. Intellegence is often mistakenly paired with the inclination towards traditional academic pursuits.

I think the second to last stanza of Rudyard Kippling's poem,"IF", sums up much of what I am trying to say. You can read/re-read it at: http://yakweb.com/hcombs/favorites/if.htm

Thats all for now folks, carry on...

AARM

By Cma (216.249.82.180) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 07:37 pm:

Roberto,

Thanks for your advice, man. You're like the wise big brother I never had. :-)

I think I'm pretty good at discerning who is a genuine person and who isn't. I don't get used by people because I can sniff out phonies, users and flakes from a mile away. It's an L.A. survival mechanism!

Better to not be with any woman at all than to be with one that will use you.

By Roberto (152.163.204.47) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 06:55 pm:

CMA:

Do not take what I say with any offense, I tend to be too honest in how I see things (reason I have so many enemies). Do not get caught up in this "white female mystique". This could be a link to your own undoing if you are not careful. Yes, there are a great many white women (around the world) who like black men, but there are also a great many who will use you for their own gain. I can give you a long list of stories of black men who were taken to the cleaners by white women who got bored with them (once the sexual appetite was satisfied) and left broken in spirit and emotion.

I'm not telling you not to trust them, just be careful. If its just for a pretty face and a sweet body, then find a woman who will treat you good first period, regardless of her race. There is a large world out there. I found that white women have no monopoly on beauty in appearence, character, spirit and intellect. Asian women I adore, because of their intelligence, Hispanic women are some of the most spirited women alive, black women do have a deep understanding of what a black man is about than any white women will ever understand.

My advice, you are young and full of life, see the world first before you commit yourself to the first pretty face that comes along. ~ Roberto

By Cma (216.249.78.216) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 03:56 pm:

Wyatt,

You said you have conducted a study on how many WW will date non-whites. Do you have your study posted on the internet anywhere? If so, please post the url.

Wyatt, I've also heard that BW are against IR in levels comparable to WW. Remember that law against IR marraige that recently got killed in Alabama? I heard that nearly half of those that wanted to keep the racist law were BW. To be honest, the women of every race are less likely to date IR than their male counterparts. The exception may be Asian women, but in their case, it's dating WMs almost exclusively. A lot of Asian men probably like WW, but may find it difficult to find one that's into Asian guys. I've known a lot of darker Asian guys like Phillipinos that dig white chics, lighter Asian men like Japanese and Koreans tend to stick with their own.

I don't know, maybe women just haven't been fully liberated and still feel like they are the "property" of the men in their race.

By Wyatt (207.106.60.186) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 03:36 pm:

CMA,
I agree with you on one thing here, there are alot more black men who look for white women than vice versa. I have been conducting a study on this for several years now, in liberal democratic cities and I am surprised at how white males and black males, Asian women and black women are far more open minded that white women when it comes to interracial relationships. My big question is why????
I do understand those who say they are against it or are conservative and that is their philosphy. What I don't understand is liberal and democratic white women who choose to be preferential when it comes to this matter.

White women, please give me some insight. Also why don't you talk to other white women about this and ask them how they can be hypocritical about this? I can never vote for liberals and democrats because of this and the major excuses they use for it.

By Wyatt (207.106.60.186) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 03:28 pm:

Fran and Cma,

I don't want to beat up on you, I just want to point out that stereotypes perpetuate racism and prejudice, so try and stay away from it. I agree with Hector though, I am a black man who acts as a man(I am not sure what acting a color is and I am not that old). I enjoy hunting and fishing, golf and tennis, Republican and progressive politics, country western,folk, alternative and jazz music because I was raised in a certain type of community. I never changed my race and never will and CMA I am strong enough to ignore the lies that others say, just because it is a popular sentiment.

CMA, again we are not all alike. You like Allysa Milano, I don't find her remotely active, we are different. I am more attracted to really intelligent, no make up, artsy, academic types who are either Jewish or WASPY or South American/Europe types. If she is tall with long dark curly hair(Amy Irving)or pageboy(Blythe Danner). I adore bookish, theatre, professor, mature women and so it is not a blanket type.

By Cma (216.249.78.216) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 02:50 pm:

Sheri,

Don't take it the wrong way. It's not that I have anything against WW. The reason I'd rather be into BW is because the amount of women I have to choose from would be larger. As we all know, there's only a small number of WW that are like you guys here that are open to dating or prefer BM. And of those many of them are just about lust or have a sexual fetish. Just look at the personal ads on this side and most of them are swingers. It's disgusting. Although physically, I think WW epitomize female beauty, the good WW that like BM are probably taken already as the competition for them is stiff. If you notice, there are twice as many ads from black men on this site than from white women. I think more BM like WW than the other way around. So there's always going to be stiff competition for them, then there's men from other races that dig them too you've got to compete with.

Yet, we hear all the statistics about educated, professional black women that are going unmarried and can't find a man. ANY white woman that is at least half-way attractive(and sometimes not even that) can snap her fingers and have a BM anytime she got ready to. Yet many black women stay single no matter what. So I say to myself that it would be a perfect solution if I would stop looking at women that mostly wouldn't even be into a BM and start going for the large number of black women that are single. That would mean more black women are happier because they are wanted, and that would make it easier for me to find someone. But like I said, for some reason, I'm just not physically attracted to black women anymore. It's not even that I think they're ugly or anything, they're just not what I want. I highly desire a woman that has the features of WW and somewhere in my mind, I have that stuck as being the model of what a beautiful woman should look like. I only wish I could replace that with a black women. I am still attracted to some black women, just very few of them. This is my dilemma. This is what sent me to the internet looking to talk to people that might understand how I feel and maybe offer suggestions. I think I have passed the point of no return in my desire for WW. I can't think of anything that will make me stop liking them.

Here's an interesting opinion from a black guy as to why he doens't date black women anymore. Although I think his reasons are exaggerated, I think he's right about some things he says. Check it out, it's very interesting:
http://www.say-it-loud.com/entertainment/sellout.htm.

So Sheri, I hope you understand where I'm coming from. There is nothing per se about IR between BM and WW that I think is wrong, I just think my chances of finding the right woman will be seriously hurt if I look mainly at WW, because most WW are not attracted to us. But I can't help it, many WW are just so pretty. I don't know, some BM, such as Wyatt in this group never seem to have had problems finding WW and I do run across BM that seem like magnets for WW. So maybe the problem just lies with me for whatever reason. I just hope some day I find what I'm looking for.

Maybe I should look in Europe or Austrailia, or somewhere that the racial dynamics are different from here.

By Sheri (66.12.20.194) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 10:42 am:

CMA-
It bothers me somewhat that you say that you "HOPE that one day a switch will go off in my head that I will be MORE into BW." That kind of eats at me for a reason I can't necessarily explain.

That to me is like saying, "I hope some day a switch will go off in my head that makes me want to be with white men only" Eventhough we are expressing ourselves on an interracial site here, I don't think we should limit ourselves to one color - as we are all from one race; the Human Race.

Do you not want to be attracted to white females, have intelligent conversations, laugh, or discuss topics with us? I understand when you say it would be easier for you to be with a black woman, as it would be much easier on me to be with a white man. It has been really difficult for me dating black men, which I have expressed here before. I have not let that stop me or get in the way of my decisions or choices in my life. It has made me a stronger more confident person being able to stand up for what I believe and not give in to society's definitions of what is "right" and what is "wrong". It has caused me to experience some negative thoughts about my own caucasian people - and unfortunately it caused me to have bad feelings about my own father, which I have overcome.

So, although it would be EASIER as some would say, for me to fall madly in love with a white man for his looks, beliefs and because it seems so much better than being with a black man, I HOPE that I never lose my strength to give in to what other people believe what is best for me!

Be strong, CMA, find happiness in whatever color true love lies!

By Sabbadoo32 (12.2.19.162) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 09:21 am:

Fran,

You just go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, you are just getting your feelings and ideas out there. Although they may be a bit unfinished, at least you're getting it out. Just like you, I have an linguistic thing. Wheras yours is about slang, mine is a light southern accent.

By Ishvara (38.163.112.115) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 09:07 am:

CMA why do you want to be attracted to BW, why does it matter?

By Frangiapani (203.54.206.49) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 05:56 am:

ok, i apologize again!!..I didnt quite mean it like that. I dont know how to say it and Im afraid if I say anything else its going to come out all wrong. Anyway, to make it short..I admire Black men and would never think down on them like that.

By Cma (216.249.73.81) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 04:59 am:

Here is something interesting. Click on this and read the parts on white women and black guys: http://www.perry.fecteau.com/cbo/

I've talked to this dude for the last several years, he's an interesting and funny dude. Some of what he says ties into what we're talking about here. I agree with a lot of it.

By Cma (216.249.73.81) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 04:03 am:

Hector,

I can certainly understand your reaction to what Fran said. I'm hoping that by "character" she didn't mean it quite the way it came off. Character is the type of thing that makes you a good, decent and whole person. Using trendy slang is ultimatly pretty meaningless. It is what a man says, not how he says it that is really important. Now I know Fran is a smart person and I'm sure she can make good decisions, but I get a bit concerned when any woman is impressed by these jiving, ebonics-spewing types. I expect that sort of thing from young women, esp. teenageers and college girls, but I think when they get older and more mature, they start to not be as impressed with that jiving. The same is true of black women. They think these types are cool when they're young, but when they're hitting 30 and still husband-hunting, they come to realize that it don't mean shit. Whatever the case, she has the right to be attracted to whatever she happens to find alluring. It's her business. But be careful what you ask for. It's hard for a black person to make it in society that does not learn how to speak standard English. You can make it as an entertainer or athlete, but most blacks know that in order to be taken seriously in the real world, you must leave the street slang behind.

By Hectorvelasquez (65.160.180.199) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 03:06 am:

SLANG GIVES A BLACK MAN CHARACTER????????? The black male artists and civil rights activists of the past would be turning over in their graves.

Forget what I said to begin with...........I have nothing further to say about this topic.

By Frangiapani (203.54.206.130) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 01:42 am:

When I say what a black man acts like Im not meaning someone like Eminem. The way black men express themselves as when having a conversation is what I meant. Its something I cant explain, but having a thoughtful conversation with a black man who has that deepness about him just makes me melt. That is what Im trying to say..

Eminem is also a huge turn off, any guy black or white, hispanic, asian that acts like him is not what I look for at all. There might have been a stage where I liked thugs but im over it now thankfully.

Im atracted to a black man who talks slang because that is part of African American culture, it gives him character.

By Cma (216.249.73.81) on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 12:14 am:

Fran, you said you like us because of the differences and that's what sets us apart. But is the differences in appearance, or differences in what you think a black man should act like? If it's appearance, than cool. If it's the latter, that's what I find a bit bothersome. Because if it's a matter of behavior, style and attitude, then someone like Emininem should appeal to you just as much.

So maybe I'm a hypocrite for saying I don't dig white chics that act black. But in my case, I think it's more than that. White girls that act black tend to have a lot of other qualities I don't like from what I've noticed. They tend to like black males for very superficial and shallow reasons. They are often rebelling against their parents and think if they wear FUBU and date black guys, they are making some sort of "statement." Some of them have some sort of fetish and think black guys all have 9 inches and want to take us for a test drive. And to be blunt, a lot of these chics are straight up hoes and don't seem like people that can hold an intelligent conversation. I've never come across one of these black-acting white girls that seems like good relationship material. Maybe they exist somewhere, but I haven't come across one. I think the best kind of WW for an IR is one that is not trying to be something she isn't. And feels confident in herself as a white woman. Perhaps I could accept a WW that acted black so long as all her other qualities were good. But the thing is, WW seem to have a softness, gentleness and sensitivity that is hard to find in BW, if she had that, then it'd be cool I guess.

By Frangiapani (144.134.88.252) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 08:46 pm:

...but I like Black men because of their difference, isnt that what sets us all apart?

By Frangiapani (144.134.88.252) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 08:43 pm:

Apologies to Kobe Bryant. yes, I did mean Bryant Gumble the newsreader. Maybe all I meant to say was Bryant Gumble turns me off. I suppose when I think of a Black man, I think someone strong and masculine. It doesnt matter to me wether he talks with slang or wears cornrows, it wouldnt matter either way. Just someone in the middle and who is decent is fine with me. But Black men are attracted to WW for certain reasons, otherwise why state them as white women, why not just say women.

Cma, you said one day you hope a switch goes off in your head and you start to like BW again..whats that about?? Im attracted to all races, Im not just after black men.

What I said was prejudice and stereotypical b

By Cma (216.249.73.81) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 07:02 pm:

Hector,

Cornrows are those braids that are tight to the scalp and go back like rows. D'Angelo wears them, and Iverson from the 76ers has them. It's the most trendy thing right now in hiphop style.

Sheri,

If you're attracted to BM for physical reason, that's cool. I don't think people have much control over what they react to. If I walk into an office and see a beautiful, tanned brunette, I don't decide whether I should think she's fine or not, I just think she's fine, period. I do get a bit suspect of WW who like BM because they think they should act a certain way. That kinda bothers me. As a BM, I get tired of the athlete and rapper being the only image people people have of the quintessential BM. It's like any BM that deviates from that is somehow considered less black. Someone else in here mentioned that many BW will pass up a brotha unless he's into this sh*t. Truth be known, many WW will do the same thing. But enough complaining from me for today...

Sheri you asked what it is that attracts some of us to WW. For me, when I think of the ideal female beauty, what comes to mind is someone that looks like Alyssa Milano or Carmen Electra. I just love their smooth, creamy looking skin and gentle curves. I think as far as personality and interests, I tend to have more in common with them than I do with most BW. I don't have things in common with all WW, maybe just the ones that live in big cities and are more exposed to different thigns. If I went to Nebraska or Utah, I probably would have nothing in common with the WW in places like that.

I'd previously said in here though that if I could, I would rather be most interested in BW than WW. It would be better for me in the long run, but I can't help my preferences right now. Maybe one day some switch will go off in my head and I'll be back into BW. I hope this happens.

By Sheri (66.12.20.194) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 05:23 pm:

I hate to step into what seems like a messy subject, thus far, but as a single white female I feel as though I am asking myself that same question every day. I am DRAWN to black men. Obviously the first reason being appearance; strong bone structure, nice full mouth, dark smooth skin. Those would be the obvious reasons. Of course, living in the area I do, black men are few and far between. Perhaps that is one of the reasons; I seek someone different in my life. Black men seem to be physically stronger, even the older men don't seem to look so frail. Looking back on my past experiences, I want to belong and be a part of something other than my caucasian culture. Is is amazing to me that as humans, we can be so different and we have so much to learn and offer one another.

I think the question is answered in reverse; Why are black men attracted to white women? Does it have to do with society's standards, physical appearance, attitutudes, personality - maybe a bit of all of the above who knowS? I just am thankful we aren't all attracted to the same person!

I think if black men sat back and asked themselves this question, most likely they would find the answer to our attraction to them. Obviously, belonging to the human race, diversity seeks out a few us to settle in on and we display our preferences boldly! Much Happiness in your search!

By Sabbadoo32 (12.2.19.162) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 05:03 pm:

Before we go too far on Bro. Cma and Sis. Frangiapani, let's get back to the point. What other things about black men are attractive to white women?

By Hectorvelasquez (65.160.183.134) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 03:38 pm:

The, or a vulgar translation of "acting black" that exists in some peoples minds is of a man or woman who is content to occupy the lowest station in society.

Is a white man who grew up in a trailor park going to speak perfect English, golf, go to a Prespeteryan church, and vote Republican for the same reason the country club set is going to? Is he not acting white if he doen't do these things, or are is there more than "one type or acting white?"

Who is the model for refined black male behavior? Is a African prince, going to school in America, going to be told he acts white because he may study all the time an speek perfect English and hence may seem nerdy?

Did Nat King Cole act black enough, did Paul Robeson act black enough, does Sydney Portier act black enough, Kofi Annan, Ken Chernault, Julian Bond, Henry Louis Gates............? Who is the prototypical "acting black enough" male today, Tupac, DMX, Jay-Z?

Doesn't Louis Farakhan listen to and play classical violin?

I am not attracted to white women who act like "Shenana" or "Shenequa," but then again I'm not attracted to "Shenana" or "Shenequa" either.

By Hectorvelasquez (63.175.46.220) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 02:58 pm:

What are cornrows?

By Cma (216.249.81.202) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 02:22 pm:

Wyatt,

I understand your point. I am not attempting to stereotype. That is why I put "act too black" in quotes. Because I mean it in the loose conventional sense. But let me also say that I think we need to be realistic. There are cultural and behavioral differences between black Americans and white Americans. Denying those differeces is like trying to deny the cultural differences between say, French people and Italian people. There are differences in speech, different music listened to, different movies and television shows watched, different fashions, different politics, different foods preferred, different sports preferred, etc. etc. Now look, I'm not saying all blacks and all whites are easily seperable into these categories, but I do think there are some general differences. Wyatt, you may not feel that you "act" white or black, but that's besides the point, because society(both black and white) is going to make judgements on you based on your demeanor, speech, dress, et al. A black man that speaks perferct English, golfs, wears conservative clothes, votes Republican, lives in the suburbs and listens to country western music is going to be told that he "acts white" whether he likes it or not.

Frangiapani,

I find some of your comments a bit bothersome. I am also wondering if you meant Bryant Gumbal and not Kobe Bryant. If not, you're the first person I've ever heard refer to Kobe as nerdy or acting too white. He seems like a good guy with class to me and a role model for the youth. I can't imagine why you'd have anything bad to say about him.
I guess this is all a sensitive issue to me. Although I wouldn't label myself as "acting white" or "acting black," I've been told by some ghetto blacks that I talk too white, even though to me, I think I talk normal. If anyone heard me over the phone you wouldn't be able to guess what my race is. I don't wear Fubu and Tommy Hill, play basketball and I can't stand Lauryn Hill and Cisqo and much of the stuff that sounds like that. I guess I'm just saying that I'm not the "stereotypical" young black man by any means. Though I also don't consider myself nerdy at all either. I damn sure hope not! But then I wondered what this all means in the IR rhelm. Since I'm not into white girls that act black, then maybe a white girl has the right to not like me because I may not act black enough for her. I may be going to far here, but from what I've seen many of those white chics that go for those hypermasculine, stereotypical types are the ones that often end up stuck raising a baby by their self. I could be wrong, but that's just what I've observed.

By Sabbadoo32 (12.2.19.162) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 01:22 pm:

Yes Cma and Frangiapani,

What does it mean to act white? It's an interesting point you make, one I've heard from other people–though the last time Iheard it was in high school. I'm a black man. I can't avoid it. I can't run from it. In fact I embrace it. If acting white means rejecting everything African-American, then rest assured, I don't act white.

Was Steve Erkel black? Or just a nerd?

There are a lot of non-slang talkin', non-stridin', non-gold wearin', non-cornrowed, non-tattooed African-American men that would like to know whether they need to invest in FUBU's newest line of corporate fashions.

By Ishvara (38.163.112.86) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 11:57 am:

yeah, I agre Wyatt, I didn't understand CMA and Fran's sentiments at all. How can you act too white Fran, b/c Kobe isn't a street thug kinda brotha? How do you define acting black and acting white? BM who act white turn you off? in your mind what are the white qualities? Nerdiness? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. And your right it does sound, at least to me, like a stereotypical prejudiced concept to buy into. In that case what are black qualities, which qualities are the nerdy guys lacking that makes you think them white acting? Too me there truly is no acting white or acting black, we all share the same qualities, different cultural upbringing, more so based now on class and still to a certain extent on color too.

By Frankie (128.164.161.250) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 10:59 am:

Frangiapani,

Did you mean Kobe Bryant the B-ball player or Bryant Gumble, the newsanchor? Kobe was on 60 Minutes II last week, and he said that since he pretty much grew up in Italy until age 14, when he moved to Philadelphia, he couldn't figure out black slang at first. When other kids would say, "Stop sweatin' me.", he'd have no idea what they meant. I thought it was kind of interesting that he entered the NBA at 18, but lived with his parents until he married.

As for Bryant Gumble, he grew up in the middle class neighborhood of Hyde Park in Chicago. Although he is regarded as one of the toughest interviewers in the biz, he does come off arrogant at times. But James Baldwin wrote that the qualities that are often admired in white men - arrogance, ambition, etc. - are considered dangerous when they are demonstrated by black men. And he had a rather messy divorce last year. His ex-wife is black, while his new girlfriend is a blonde woman (a rather attractive one from the pictures I've seen). But he has bigger problems, like the low ratings for his Early Show.

By Wyatt (207.106.60.186) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 09:13 am:

CMA
I am not sure what you mean by acting like a BM or WM or WW acting like BW. What does acting like a black woman mean? I am a black man, I can't act like a white man, unless I am in the theatre. I act like my personality, how I was raised, who my parents and friends are, what things I enjoy, but I am still black. There are different kinds of people. Black people don't all act or look or feel the same. The are individuals. There are conservative blacks, moderate blacks, liberal blacks and progressive blacks and all the mixes inbetween. Why try and pigeon hole blacks or whites to fit an unreal stereotype? There are poor blacks who act like Jazzy and there are rich blacks like Lawrence Otis Graham and many black middle class who don't fit your stereotype. Listen, I am not calling you racist, but your statement creates racist stereotypes that blacks act a certain way. I was born upper middle class, protestant. I am highly educated, grew up in a nice suburb, summered every year and traveled quite extensively. I never once felt like I was white, not once. I have always been happy being black. I have never felt ashamed of the race that I am and never will. But that does not mean that I act a certain way. That sir is absurd.

By Frangiapani (203.54.207.64) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 06:52 am:

Im going to be completely honest and say I am not attracted to Black men that act white. It sounds prejudice but there are certain characteristics Black men have that differ from White men or Asian men. Im attracted to BM partly because of this..its not about being stereotypical but one of the things that sets people of different races apart. If a WW acts "black" and that is who she is, then so what? But I always wonder if a BM is attracted to that, then why not just be with a BW?..then I feel like Im wrong for saying that because color and how a person acts shouldn't even matter.

That guy Kobe Bryant cracks me up, Im awful for saying it, but yes, he acts too white and that may not even matter to some but its just not for me. It would get on my nerves. African American men have a deepness and manliness about them and although white men have the same masculine ways and are attractive..when a BM acts "white" he comes off as being...kinda nerdy.

Besides that, most people dont like someone for their color its the person they are..but you cant deny the fact that Black men and other races act and think somewhat differently to each other so when Im attracted to a BM Ill have a small idea of what he is like.

I probably contradicted myself a few times there but like Cma said, the way we feel is just how we feel and we cant help that.

By Cma (216.249.82.74) on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 12:09 am:

After having many conversations here, it seems as though most the BM here, including myself don't like WW that act like BW or try to emulate them. Not that there's anything wrong with acting like a BW, but if we get a WW, we want a WW, not a WW that's trying to be a BW.

So this question struck me tonight...What do WW like? Do they feel as though they want a BM that acts like a BM? Do they shun black guys that they think "act too white" the same way we might shun white girls that "act too black?" For WW that like to date black guys, I wonder who would be higher on the list, a black dude that talks and acts like Jay-Z or a black guy that talks and acts like Bryant Gumbal.