MightyLighty
Well-Known Member
^I see it as more of a symbolic gesture, particularly at the national level, the state and local governance, plays a much larger and important role in our lives, particularly here in the states.
Random Political comments...
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Peach State Scholar
Well-Known Member
Whoa, slow down there. You're making too much sense!
Sadly, a lot of Americans feel that their ignorance is as good as someone else's (often very specialized) knowledge, and they want their representatives to be the same way. These are scary times we're living in and I feel that it's only going to get worse before it gets better.
Peach State Scholar
Well-Known Member
Even at the national level there are tons of complexities to crafting legislation. And while a lot of what affects us on a daily basis is at the local and state level, federal statues and regulations play a pretty big role, as well. They're important too.
andreboba
Well-Known Member
In a representative democracy, 'politics' is how we election legislators, enact laws and govern ourselves.
How is it overrated??
Sometimes I think America needs to turn into a brutal, Iraq style autocracy where every election is a sham and every winner wins with 98% of the vote, even though none of the votes are officially counted.
When you truly live in a country where the voices of the masses are completely ignored, then people will understand and value what we have in the USA, even if it's structurally flawed.
Imagine living in a country where people tried to protest against the rise in police brutality, and ALL the protesters and leaders of that movement were arrested, given lifetime sentences with the leaders of that movement executed.
That's when politics is overrated.
We thankfully aren't there yet, but I do know how we get there.
When people say on a message board, politics is overrated.
God I wish people would study history more and stop looking at the NOW in vacuum.
bodhesatva
Well-Known Member
An interesting twist I've found when talking to people about the Trump-Russia collusion story is that many people who are in to some wacky conspiracy theories (9/11 was an inside job, Vaccines cause autism, Reptilian overlords, etc.) are dismissive of the Trump-Russia collusion story. It's kinda weird, right? I mean, we have an actual investigation in to what increasingly looks like a real conspiracy and the people who spend all day ranting about fake conspiracies miss it. It's like spending your whole life crying wolf then being uninterested when the wolf finally does arrive.
If I had to guess, I think it's because the Trump-Russia thing has been so brazen. I mean, Trump said on the campaign trail and in public that he wanted Russia to hack Hillary's email accounts. This isn't some super secret covert conspiracy that nobody knew about: it's been pretty in-your-face from the start, and it doesn't seem like Trump's people have been particularly good at covering their tracks. I think people who are in to a whole bunch of conspiracies like the secrecy part of it: they like the idea that powerful people are secretly and covertly against you, and that they are cleverly covering it up. A conspiracy out in the open like this just doesn't hold the same appeal.
If I had to guess, I think it's because the Trump-Russia thing has been so brazen. I mean, Trump said on the campaign trail and in public that he wanted Russia to hack Hillary's email accounts. This isn't some super secret covert conspiracy that nobody knew about: it's been pretty in-your-face from the start, and it doesn't seem like Trump's people have been particularly good at covering their tracks. I think people who are in to a whole bunch of conspiracies like the secrecy part of it: they like the idea that powerful people are secretly and covertly against you, and that they are cleverly covering it up. A conspiracy out in the open like this just doesn't hold the same appeal.
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andreboba
Well-Known Member
Only Trump supporters and Berniebots don't want the Trump collusion story to be true, to the point they're ignoring Trump's odd relationship and 'friendliness' with Putin and Russia.
Mueller has subpoena power. He can get all of Trump's tax returns and any real estate filings.
I understand for Trump supporters how the collusion story is frightening. Not only would Trump be impeached, but he would be charged with treason.
It would be the worst scandal in modern presidential history.
Trump supporters ignore that he's a pathological liar, doesn't understand how the federal government works or checks and balances, doesn't care that he has multiple conflicts of interests worldwide because of his real estate holdings, etc.
They don't even care that Trump fired FBI Director Comey to prevent any further investigation into his campaign's connections to Russia.
It's going to be hard for Trump supporters to maintain their denial once the Mueller investigation is completed.
bodhesatva
Well-Known Member
I mean, to emphasize, Trump said in the campaign that he wanted Russia to hack Hillary's emails, and said "I love wikileaks!" He has made it very clear that he wants to relieve sanctions on Russia and made almost no changes to the GOP platform at the GOP convention except to ease pressure on the Russian occupation of Ukraine. I think a really striking quote I saw regarding the Trump-Russia collusion was from Evan McMullin, the Mormon conservative and former CIA agent who ran for President and almost won Utah:
"Trump publicly colluded with the Russians during the campaign. It's as though we'll only believe it when we learn he did it in secret too."
I really think that's true. I feel like people are so conditioned to look for dirty little secrets that they don't even notice the dirty stuff done in broad daylight.
"Trump publicly colluded with the Russians during the campaign. It's as though we'll only believe it when we learn he did it in secret too."
I really think that's true. I feel like people are so conditioned to look for dirty little secrets that they don't even notice the dirty stuff done in broad daylight.
bodhesatva
Well-Known Member
Speaking of this conspiracy being out in "broad daylight," Rob Goldstone, the guy who apparently set up the meeting between Trump Jr. and the Russian government official to discuss compromising material on Clinton, checked in to this Trump Jr./Russia meeting on Facebook. Just look. This is all being done out in the open so I guess it's okay!
The Dark King
Well-Known Member
I hate to say it but evil has won. Stack your money and await the crash
bodhesatva
Well-Known Member
So the water-gate tapes of our time just came out. Feels weird to actually be living in a time like this. I wasn't alive during Nixon, so the idea of a President actually being mired in a scandal like this basically only comes from history books to me. And yes, I'm aware that some people try to claim that Bush should have been impeached or that Obama was the worst President ever or whatever, but those are mostly fake scandals drummed up by the opposition (I hated Bush as a President, on a personal level, but incompetent Presidents are not impeachable). This one is now very clearly REAL.
The Dark King
Well-Known Member
He ain't going nowhere
The GOP will NEVER impeach him
andreboba
Well-Known Member
Both Republicans AND Democrats voted to impeach Nixon because of the testimony of Nixon's own top aides and the WH tapes.
When the credibility of your party is at stake, legislators tend to stick the knife deep into their own to save the party.
Trump is still considered an outsider by the GOP. They have absolutely NO loyalty to Trump or his family.
Remember these recent email leaks from Don Jr. allegedly originated from within the WH. That's how the NYT got them and FORCED Donny Jr. to release them on his twitter account, or the NYT would release them in print.
I wouldn't be surprised at this point if Donny Jr. doesn't flip on his father to avoid federal prosecution.
Trust, if polls show the majority of Americans, conservatives and liberals, believe Trump should be impeached based on the evidence gathered by Mueller and the current Donny Jr. bombshell, Trump is done and will resign.
If the GOP allows a POTUS to continue in office that has been proven to be guilty of obstruction of justice, collusion and possibly treason, it would destroy their political party.
They will hang Trump before they let that happen.
Also, Nixon was a very popular president at the time. Much more respected and liked than Donald Trump.
Karma is about to get its foot stuck up inside Trump's ass.
Loki
Well-Known Member
Both Republicans AND Democrats voted to impeach Nixon because of the testimony of Nixon's own top aides and the WH tapes.
When the credibility of your party is at stake, legislators tend to stick the knife deep into their own to save the party.
Trump is still considered an outsider by the GOP. They have absolutely NO loyalty to Trump or his family.
Remember these recent email leaks from Don Jr. allegedly originated from within the WH. That's how the NYT got them and FORCED Donny Jr. to release them on his twitter account, or the NYT would release them in print.
I wouldn't be surprised at this point if Donny Jr. doesn't flip on his father to avoid federal prosecution.
Trust, if polls show the majority of Americans, conservatives and liberals, believe Trump should be impeached based on the evidence gathered by Mueller and the current Donny Jr. bombshell, Trump is done and will resign.
If the GOP allows a POTUS to continue in office that has been proven to be guilty of obstruction of justice, collusion and possibly treason, it would destroy their political party.
They will hang Trump before they let that happen.
Also, Nixon was a very popular president at the time. Much more respected and liked than Donald Trump.
Karma is about to get its foot stuck up inside Trump's ass.
Agree with the vast majority of what you are saying here, the evidence of obstruction must be clear and beyond a doubt. The only way the GOP votes to impeach or support removing Trump by other means is if he becomes a very clear and present threat to holding their seats in congress. IMO, we are not at that point yet, but I do think Mueller has more than just smoke to work with, should be interesting to watch...
The Dark King
Well-Known Member
We are watching two different Americans fellas. I see one where 62 million people voted for a buffoon. They will support him even if it means their own destruction because the GOP as a whole would rather be first class on the titanic than actually have a system that works.
They play make believe while this dude is becoming unhinged in front of our eyes. Basically if the donors want him there that's where he'll stay. This ain't the 70s fam democracy has been dead for awhile.
They play make believe while this dude is becoming unhinged in front of our eyes. Basically if the donors want him there that's where he'll stay. This ain't the 70s fam democracy has been dead for awhile.
Loki
Well-Known Member
Not discounting your point of view TDK, your concerns are not unfounded, if Trump cant deliver on all of those outrageous claims/promises he made during the campaign, I'm still willing to bet those 62 million easily duped, low information, woefully naive, voters will turn on him and those in his cabinet. I'm reminded of a quote by British politician, Joseph Chamberlin, dating around the late-19th century: "I think that you will all agree that we are living in most interesting times. (Hear, hear.) I never remember myself a time in which our history was so full, in which day by day brought us new objects of interest, and, let me say also, new objects for anxiety."
The Dark King
Well-Known Member
They will scapegoat black and brown people. That's what they do, they chanted about building a wall and keeping Muslims out. They don't have the capability of recognizing who their real enemies are.
andreboba
Well-Known Member
Modern Republicans will and do eat their own if the scandal is big enough and threatens their seats in Congress.
Exhibit A: Trent Lott.
Exhibit B: Tom DeLay.
Exhibit C: Mark Foley.
Exhibit D" Larry Craig.
Understand that Trump really isn't that popular among elected and mainstream Republicans. Many voted for him out of party loyalty and not some belief in the exceptional ability of Trump to lead this country.
You can see that lack of enthusiasm for Trump among rank and file Republicans by how few of them showed up for his inauguration.
In fact, if Senate leader Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan had gotten the AHCA passed into law already, the rats we already be jumping ship from Trump.
The GOP doesn't want to go into 2018 with an impeached POTUS and nothing to show for it.
But sometimes people don't have control of events and simply must endure them.
It's not that the GOP won't impeach Trump. It all depends how overwhelming the evidence is against him. Or not.
If much of the most incriminating evidence against Trump is highly circumstantial and open to interpretation, the GOP will stick with Trump as best they can until 2020.
But if the evidence is such that all those former lawyers in Congress believe the POTUS should be in prison RIGHT NOW, I promise you even the rapid right wing will abandon Donald.
The GOP doesn't want to be branded the party of treason who would support a candidate over patriotism and national security.
You know how serious the recent revelations are because Trump isn't attacking or tweeting about them.
When more high level staffers at the WH realize their own legal self-preservation is on the line, more than likely someone will flip and tell Congress everything.
Exhibit A: Trent Lott.
Exhibit B: Tom DeLay.
Exhibit C: Mark Foley.
Exhibit D" Larry Craig.
Understand that Trump really isn't that popular among elected and mainstream Republicans. Many voted for him out of party loyalty and not some belief in the exceptional ability of Trump to lead this country.
You can see that lack of enthusiasm for Trump among rank and file Republicans by how few of them showed up for his inauguration.
In fact, if Senate leader Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan had gotten the AHCA passed into law already, the rats we already be jumping ship from Trump.
The GOP doesn't want to go into 2018 with an impeached POTUS and nothing to show for it.
But sometimes people don't have control of events and simply must endure them.
It's not that the GOP won't impeach Trump. It all depends how overwhelming the evidence is against him. Or not.
If much of the most incriminating evidence against Trump is highly circumstantial and open to interpretation, the GOP will stick with Trump as best they can until 2020.
But if the evidence is such that all those former lawyers in Congress believe the POTUS should be in prison RIGHT NOW, I promise you even the rapid right wing will abandon Donald.
The GOP doesn't want to be branded the party of treason who would support a candidate over patriotism and national security.
You know how serious the recent revelations are because Trump isn't attacking or tweeting about them.
When more high level staffers at the WH realize their own legal self-preservation is on the line, more than likely someone will flip and tell Congress everything.
MightyLighty
Well-Known Member
"Read between the lines, and then you see the lie
Politically planned... But understand, that's all she wrote
When we see the real side that hide behind the vote"
Man, Chuck was such a visionary.
Politically planned... But understand, that's all she wrote
When we see the real side that hide behind the vote"
Man, Chuck was such a visionary.
Soulthinker
Well-Known Member
Are your parents Russian or just American? Watergate was quite a scandal.