Prediction: Health Care Bill Will Not Pass

The man and woman have the same financial responsibility. There are in fact single fathers in the world, and in those cases the woman has to pay for 18 years as well.

The woman actually has more responsibility, because she has the physical responsibility for 9 months, and no court can change that.

So the man and woman have equal responsibility financially, and the woman has more responsibility bodily, and yet men find this unfair.

 

Men find this unfair insofar as a man has no say in whether a woman keeps a child or not, yet is expected to shut up and pay out.

I won't be responding anymore to this topic as women's martyr complexes trump any common sense or male point of view on this issue. Keep it wrapped up or pull out fellas or you'll be listening to circular arguments for the next 20 years.

 

I don't see how anyone benefits from having an unwanted child. I get that its your body your decision but if you make that decision you should be the one to suffer the consequences. And before I get the its not the same thing arguement. Think of a person who constantly over eats should I have to pay for their lipo just because I delivered the food. They chose to eat and its their body they should be more responsible right?

 

If a person overeats until they have a heart attack and they get sent to the ER but don't have health insurance, best believe you will be paying, as will all tax payers. Because we as a society don't want people being stopped at the emergency room door and checked for insurance.

Sometimes you can't balance things to fairness.

Nobody benefits from having an unwanted child. Least of all the child. Does taking money away from the child make that more fair?

 

You have a say in whether she puts the kid up for adoption. You just don't have a choice as to what she does while it's inside her. Why do you think you should?

Women have to pay up or shut up when they don't have custody. Why shouldn't men?

I've been using logic and reason, (not to mention a clearly better understanding of family law) and you're punking out.

 

I gotta agree with karma yor points are far more emotion based. This is an agree to disagree topic.

 

I actually agree with you to a point on this Karma. If a man absolutely is against a woman keeping a child and she chooses to have the child anyway, I really don't have an issue with him not being required to pay support. I realize that's likely not a popular opinion with most women and some men, but it works for me. That's a fair trade for having the freedom to choose to do as I please with my own body.

As you have pointed out previously Andrae, sometimes you can be acting responsibly to no avail. So at that point it's not all on the woman if she becomes pregnant.

 

Where's the emotion?

You guys are the ones talking "unfair". I'm pointing out the basis for law. You seem to think laws are made by Batman. That's simply not how it works.

Seriously, you all have failed to even recognize that men and women have exactly the same financial responsibilities under the law. How is sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending not to listen somehow unemotional.

You're all on your damned manperiods.

 

Breaking News:

Democrats predict victory in health bill vote

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama and Democratic House leaders resolved a long-standing dispute over abortion Sunday, securing crucial support from a handful of lawmakers and setting the stage for a historic vote on a comprehensive health care overhaul.

The White House announced that Obama would issue an executive order after passage of the health care bill that reaffirms current law barring taxpayer dollars for abortion, except in cases of rape, incest and a threat to the life of the mother.

Moments after the White House statement, Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., a leading abortion foe, and six other anti-abortion Democrats announced they would back the health care bill.

"We're well past 216," Stupak told reporters.

Earlier in the day, in a show of confidence, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi emerged from the final Democratic caucus before the vote wielding a large gavel and leading Democrats across the street to the Capitol for the final series of tallies.

"We are doing this for the American people," Pelosi said.

 

I could actually see reason in this if men stopped tying it to abortion. It's idiotic, suggesting there's any relationship whatsoever between financial obligations and biological ones.

 

I can actually see the male POV on abortion Chi because it doesn't appear to be fair. If we choose to keep a child, they have no say, and if we choose to abort a child, they have no say. Being forced to pay support when you had no voice in the outcome is difficult to accept and I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me.

As I said, I'm really ambivalent about this from the standpoint that I really don't like the idea that anyone else has a say about what I do with my body, yet an unborn child is just as much a part of the father as he is the mother. It's a moot point for me now since I can no longer have children, however I think reproductive rights really should be left up to the person doing the reproducing. Case in point, I had a tubal after my son was born because future pregnancies would be life threatening, and yet despite that being an uncontested fact by several doctors, the law required me to get my Ex's approval before it could be done. The law however does not require a husband to get the approval of his wife for a vasectomy, which I think is completely unfair. So I'll gladly accept a lack of any type of support in exchange for not having to ask permission from anyone where my body is concerned.

 

Whoa take it easy Chi with the period comment I could never say that to you without you getting tight. I said you were coming from a place of emotion because you're a mother unless I read incorrectly. As for our arguement will keep this strictly logical.
Granted a woman does carry the biological burden of having a child but that's the way nature intended it its not something devious men did to punish or take advantage of women so men shouldn't be held responsible for natural decree. Its the equivilant of saying that me blaming you for my morning wood and the blue balls that accompany it. You argue its your body your choice so why does your choice include my wallet. If I decide that I'm not ready for the responsibility of having a child who are you to tell me I have to be. You want control over your body and your destiny shouldn't I have the same freedom.

 

So I guess I'm not on my "manperiod" after all. Or does it have more credence when a woman says it?

 

I'm not.

As for the ad hom, I'm just taking the "you're being emotional" crap to it's logical conclusion. It was more directed at Karma than you, however. Whenever gender issues are discussed, women start saying men are pigs and men start saying women are emotional and can't argue logically. I'm not reducing it to that, so I see no need for the men to. If we're going to be putting each other down with "girlie" insults, I'm gonna hurl them too.

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying exactly what you are: god, the universe, or nature, made having a child or not the woman's decision. Because only she can decide how to treat her body for that 9 months. Only she can decide whether that fetus has a good 9 months or a bad one. And only she should be able to decide whether her body is a good place for a fetus or not.

If you want to say that men should be able to sign a document upon learning of the existence of a fetus that he should be able to drop all claim to a child along with all financial responsibility, then I find that reasonable. But I don't see any relationship there to the responsibility a woman faces biologically, so I don't see the point in combining the two. "We'll let you have your human rights if you give us our financial freedom". It's offensive. And it doesn't work legally.

Legally, if you want to make things fair you declare that men and women both have a financial responsibility towards the child, and they do.

Legally, if you wanted to make a woman's right to choose fair, you'd have to do things that aren't possible. So it remains unfair.

I think the problem here is that you are both assuming that in all breakups, the woman will get custody. That's where the real unfairness lies. In far too many cases, the father is the better parent, but the only relationship he every has with the kid is financial, thanks to a corrupt family court. That's where the unfairness is.

 

Hiding behind another woman's skirts much?

 

Gender should have nothing to do with it. Having a dick doesn't make you one.

 

I wonder if you question your man's maleness when he disagrees with you as well. That's a sistagirl trait, just so you know.

 

Don't tell me, tell Chi.

 

I agree Chi, it shouldn't be necessary to make a deal to maintain your rights, or to essentially use bribery to obtain something that should be yours freely. However, that is often the case as an awful lot of people won't even entertain anything unless there's something in it for them. Despite it being an offensive concept, that's a deal I'd be willing to make. Sometimes the benefits far outweigh the personal cost.

 

I don't have to question my Man's maleness. He actually is a Man.

I've never seen him act cowardly, like you are. He calls a pussy a pussy, and so will I.

Hiding behind ad homs while you're running away from an argument is a sistagirl trait, too. Maybe you should finish storming off now, your flounce is lacking.