On a couple of occasions, I have raised parallels between the treatment that black people sometimes experience as a result of racism and the treatment that women sometimes experience as a result of sexism. Invariably, one of the men on the forum will tell me that they are different and that the parallel doesn't hold, so I'd like to explore this a bit. In the case of both racism and sexism, individuals are assumed to have certain characteristics or abilities by virtue of some demographic trait - sex or race - that they did not choose to have, though they may certainly embrace their race or their sex and they may even be proud of them. Both racism and sexism create harm or obstacles for the people who are their targets. To me, these things seem quite similar. If they are different, how are they different?
I find parallels and similarities as well. If it's any help, and I doubt that it will be, my BW friends see the parallels as well.
A. One is older than the older, because its counterpart is based upon a conceptual framework that is relatively new to human thinking. B. One has a set of victims who are more willing to accept the inequalities that sprout from its manifestations. C. One may possibly disappear into the recesses of history before the human race is destroyed or destroys itself.
White woman gets pulled over for traffic violation and has a chance of getting off with only a warning. Black man gets pulled over for same offense and has a chance of not having his car searched. There is an example of racism and sexism. The next time you're pulled over, and they're about to let you off.,. demand your ticket in the name of equality.
Maybe you should include white men and black women to those comparisons. Have similar genders with different ethnicities in the same scenario to give off a better sense.
Sexism and racism in what context? A male doctor not being asked to work on a woman is sexism but never considered so even though I get why a female would more preferable in that situation. Look at my sig
MrF, when did I ever say that I was ok with exclusion? The point of my thread is two-fold. First, I'm trying to understand this claim about the two phenomena being different, and this is genuine. I'm hoping for something beyond the "racism happens to me, so it's worse than sexism, which happens to you" kind of thinking. If there are indeed differences, I'd like to hear about them. Second, I'm expressing my own view that the women and the men on this site are both subject to forms of discrimination, so perhaps we should be a little more understanding of each other.
Not only some do, some don't, but some also think that the mention of sexism is time for the Oppression Olympics, and as I've pointed out before, nobody wins. I'd think that people experiencing different kinds of oppression would be more likely to be allies than spend their time playing "Who has it worse?"
I never said that YOU personally were ok with exclusion but it seems like a lot of people are. We as people hate oppression when it threatens us but don't seem to care much when it happens to others ie our sweatshop made clothing but back to your initial point. For me as a black man in this country its extremely difficult for me to see the plight of women especially white women. Your white privilege appears to over ride your womanhood at least in comparison to me and those who look like me. From a legal stand point it seems like the law favors women. If a woman molests a child its not met with the same harshness when a man does it. Women(ww in particular) are far less likely to go to death row for committing the same crime as a man. A female accusing a man of rape or sexual harassment is enough to ruin a man's life in this country (admittedly it's probably because of the fear being sued later) Socially a woman just sheds some tears and people seem to automatically be on her side (especially ww). Black men don't get away with anything. We're public enemy 1 2 and 3 we rarely if ever get a pass. Cops are allowed to beat and harass even kill us with just a slap on the wrist. Women in this country don't seem to have police officers beating them or killing. I've yet to hear of even one "accidental" or "justified" homicide with anyone non black. What also makes it tough for me to see female oppression in the US is because in comparison to the rest of the world women here do great. Oppression to me is shit that gones on in the middle east and third world countries where women are raped by soldiers and having their clots cut off. As far as the industrialized world is concerned bm are treated worst here than anywhere else. Looking at bm unemployment statistics and the amount they are unfairly imprisoned makes it really hard to see how sexism and racism are the same thing in this country
Christ I said most of what needed to be said in the third post. Marvel at my brilliance motherfuckers, it'll make everything easier.
Hence my comment about some men on here understanding and not others.... Ok, even supposing that you are right about the differences in the treatment of men and women or black and white people in terms of sentencing and the like, this is a somewhat marginal case. How many of us are criminals or sexual harassers? Something more applicable to the general population is probably the pay gap that still exists between men and women. Even in this day and age we don't have pay equity (it's around 78 cents/dollar now). I realize that you - and other on this site - think that a woman's earning power is not significant because she will be taken care of by some man (a view that is itself a manifestation of sexist thinking), but this is a very real and tangible example of the systematic and widespread discrimination that exists for women. I'm not interested in comparing the different forms or degrees that oppression takes - the "oppression Olympics" as Pixie called it - but I am interested in understanding why people view one form of discrimination as more tolerable than another.
Reread my post please I added more. My overall point is remember your audience on this board. It's difficult for me to see your oppression in this country.
I see that now. You are on my "ignore" list, so I have to click something to see a post of yours. I'd suggest that you are mistaken about black men being worse off here than in the developing world. If you take into account the pockets of severe poverty ($2/day type poverty) and things like civil war, I think that there are areas where conditions are much, much worse than they are here in the States - which is not to suggest that there are not serious problems here. I never meant to suggest that black men do not face oppression and discrimination in the States. They do, and that is in fact part of my point.
Because, as I was told last night in another thread, it's "tradition." The forms that gender discrimination take are often subtle and so deeply woven into the society that most people don't see them until they're pointed out, and then women are often told to "get a sense of humor" about them. Simple example: Rape jokes. They're not funny, period. But when a woman points that out, some men tend to say "Hey, lighten up!" But when 1 woman in 6 is raped in her lifetime, it's really not funny. The subtle ways in which women are discriminated against are no less real, and have no less impact. What some people miss is that in things like salary discrimination, it's not just the woman who is the victim, it's her partner if she has one, and her kids as well. Saying "Hey, you have nothing to be upset about, women in other countries have their clits cut off" is bullshit. It's like me saying to BM who are stopped for driving while black "Hey, you have nothing to be upset about, you aren't a slave." Some people don't want to get it, like some racists don't want to get it, because it means confronting their own privilege, and that is never a comfortable thing to do. I'd assume that most of the WW on this board have *had* to do that where race is concerned because of the nature of interpersonal relationships they have with BM. But the men have not had to do that where gender is concerned. Some have taken it upon themselves to do so, and I thank them for that. Some have not, but I have hope because I see glimmers of enlightenment when they aren't paying attention. And some are lost causes where gender discrimination is concerned.
Exactly! Even though it doesn't speak to the demographic of this forum. It's very difficult to understand the so called plight of the ww when you're this country's most favored protected people
I have a BW friend who is also a lesbian and disabled. We joke about her having won the trifecta of the Oppression Olympics. There are many lenses through which one can observe discrimination in this society or any others. Race isn't the only lens. NG has simply pointed out one other. We could make a thread about sexual orientation or gender identity, or about ableism. There are a lot of ways in which privilege operates. To me, being a progressive means being aware of the ways in which I am privileged as well as the ways in which I am not. I'm privileged by race, sexual orientation, gender identity, intellect, and class. I'm not privileged by gender, disability and age. None of those things cancels out the other. They are all a part of the lens through which I experience the world.
