FAIL!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by satyricon, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. satyricon

    satyricon Guest

    Most see Bush presidency as a failure, poll shows

    * Story Highlights
    * 68 percent of people questioned in poll say George W. Bush presidency was a failure
    * 31 percent call Bush presidency a success, CNN/Opinion Research poll shows
    * 44 percent say Bush faults led to failure; 22 percent blame outside circumstances
    * Half of those polled say U.S. would be better off if Al Gore had won in 2000

    By Paul Steinhauser
    CNN Deputy Political Director

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As George W. Bush spends his final days in office, a national poll suggests that two-thirds of Americans see his presidency as a failure.

    Sixty-eight percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll released Sunday said that Bush's eight years in the White House were a failure, with 44 percent saying this was because of his personal shortcomings and 22 percent blaming the failure on circumstances beyond his control.

    Thirty-one percent said they consider Bush's presidency a success.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/18/poll.bush.presidency/
     
  2. Moskvichka

    Moskvichka New Member

    My brother pointed out the other day that despite everything you just mentioned, he has managed to keep Americans safe from terrorist attacks on their own land since 9/11/01. Security forces have outdone themselves. Does that amount to anything?
     
  3. LA

    LA Well-Known Member

    9/11 was staged.
     
  4. satyricon

    satyricon Guest

    No. It's unlikely that al-Qaeda would've been able to mount a similar attack given the ramped up security measures that characterized the post-9/11 era. But it is possible that 9/11 could've been curtailed had Bush acted on the intelligence brief detailing bin Laden's intent to wage a domestic strike he received months prior to its occurrence. Ultimately we'll never know because he chose to do nothing and, of course, what is past is past. A question your brother should ask himself is this: "Was there a better way to maintain the national security of the United States without sacrificing our principles of civil liberty and international moral authority?" To that my answer is emphatically yes.

    The suspension of habeas corpus for prisoners in Gitmo and outright lies that led us into Iraq nullify whatever claims Bush and his supporters can make towards keeping us safe.

    At what cost . . . at what cost?
     
  5. amanda 7527

    amanda 7527 New Member

    Bush sure wasnt perfect, but you cant blame him or republicans for everything for everything. How about Clinton, when he called off an attack that would of killed Bin Laden?? That would of prevented a lot im sure!
     
  6. amanda 7527

    amanda 7527 New Member

    Easy killer, im not blaming everything on Clinton. I actually liked Clinton. And how can that be fabricated, when it has been shown countless times Clinton saying he regretting not killing Bin Laden?? He still says its one of his biggest regrets to this day. I suppose you think thats CGI or something.

    And if ya think its all the republicans fault, chew on this for a while,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1

    Everybody is to blame, not one party


     
  7. karmacoma.

    karmacoma. Well-Known Member

    I haven't had a heart attack between 9/11 and now, does Bush get credit for that too?
     
  8. webmaster

    webmaster Administrator Staff Member

    At the time many republicans didn't think Bin Laden was a threat and accused Clinton of "wagging the dog." Here is what most republicans thought about it back in 1998. Especially the last two paragraphs.

    http://www.salon.com/news/1998/08/27news.html

    Is bin Laden a terrorist mastermind --
    or a fall guy?


    The Clinton administration accuses Saudi renegade Osama bin Laden of being directly responsible for almost every terrorist act of the last decade. But where's the evidence?


    "Our target was terror. Our mission was clear."
    -- President Clinton, Aug. 20, 1998

    To the litany of terrorist acts that President Clinton laid at the feet of renegade Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden in justification of his cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan and the Sudan last week, the administration has now alleged a murky plot to assassinate the president as well.

    The alleged plot against Clinton was to have taken place when he was to have visited Pakistan. The anonymous intelligence sources that have made such an industry in bin Laden revelations this week acknowledge that the plot never went beyond the coffee-shop talking stage.

    But the charge helped to reinforce the president's claims that bin Laden is "perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today," and that there was "compelling" -- if unrevealable -- evidence that a network of terrorist groups he controlled was planning "further attacks against Americans and other freedom-loving groups."

    At a time when presidential veracity is at an all-time low, one might have wished that the president and his national security advisors had laid out in detail just what was the "compelling evidence" that led the United States to launch some 75 missiles at two sovereign nations.

    As it is, the public, both here in the United States and in the more critical world at large, is being asked to take a giant Kierkegaardian leap of faith in the president's claims. Given Clinton's recent track record in the "trust me" department, this is a lot to demand.

    For while there is little doubt that bin Laden is a sworn enemy of the United States with the financial means to put some teeth in that enmity, his exact role in anti-American terrorism is unclear. The administration's claims are based more on conjecture -- mostly bin Laden's own braggadocio and the bad company he apparently keeps -- than hard and convincing evidence.

    Clinton and his security staff have now blamed bin Laden for being behind almost every terrorist act in the past decade -- from plotting the assassinations of the pope and the president of Egypt to the planned bombing of six U.S. jumbo jets over the Pacific, with massacres of German tourists at Luxor and the killings of U.S. troops in Somalia, fatal car bombings of U.S. military personnel in Saudi Arabia and this month's truck bombings of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam thrown in. Not since the '70s heyday of the terrorist Carlos has there been such a Prince of Darkness, if the allegations are to be believed.

    But so far, for all of the accusations, no government, not even that of the United States, has established enough credible evidence against bin Laden to conclusively prove his direct participation in, much less leadership of, any of the ugly plots and acts he stands accused of. To date no formal request for his extradition has ever been made, either to the Sudanese government that once housed him or to his current hosts, Afghanistan's Taliban leaders.

    Though it was suddenly leaked this week that a federal grand jury's continuing investigation into the World Trade Center bombing in New York City in 1993 had belatedly handed up a sealed indictment against bin Laden in June, the indictment is understood to be only for "sedition," that is, incitement to violence, not the violence itself. That is the same charge under which the Unites States previously convicted Egyptian cleric Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, the Trade Center bomber's spiritual leader.

    The only link between bin Laden and the World Trade Center bombing seems to be the fact that the mastermind of the bombing, Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, was eventually detained by U.S. agents while living in a guest house in Pakistan reportedly rented by bin Laden. The Saudi was also implicated in a failed 1994 plan to blow up American jumbo jets over the Pacific because the plot mastermind, Wali Khan Amin Shah, reportedly was a "close friend" of bin Laden's.

    If bin Laden's fingerprints were to be found on any terrorist acts of the last decade, they should have been on the two attacks against U.S. military personnel carried out in the years when he was still living in his Saudi Arabian homeland. Bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi engineering graduate who became a radical Muslim after joining the war against Russia's occupation of Afghanistan in 1979, became virulently anti-American after U.S. troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia during the 1991 Gulf War.

    To him the American presence in Saudi Arabia, home of the holy Islamic sites Mecca and Medina, is a sacrilege he has vowed to reverse, along with toppling the "corrupt" Saudi royal family that has allowed it. Thus, when a car bomb exploded at a Saudi National Guard office in Riyadh in 1995, killing five Americans, and another blew up at the Khobar Towers Barracks in Dhahran a year later, killing another 19, bin Laden seemed the most likely suspect.

    But neither the FBI, the CIA nor the Saudi intelligence services has ever been able to establish bin Laden's links to those crimes after years of trying. What evidence that has emerged from those ongoing investigations points the finger at dissident Saudi Shiites, perhaps with the logistic support of the Lebanese Hezbollah organization, or even Iran.

    Though much has been made of the fact that from his safe-houses in Afghanistan bin Laden has forged a loose alliance with perhaps a dozen different Islamic groups in the Muslim world from Algeria to Bangladesh, he seems to be more of a spiritual leader and financier than the sort of terrorist mastermind being alleged.

    "Bin Laden is a true believer and a funder of Islamic causes, rather than a planner and active participant," says Professor Shibley Telhani, a Middle East scholar from the University of Maryland who has followed his career. "His real influence is not as a mastermind of terrorism but as a person who is using a personal fortune to encourage others to wage war against the American interests in the Middle East he finds so objectionable."

    Indeed the sealed federal indictment just handed up, it would appear, is not based on any evidence directly linking him to either of those plots or others. Instead, it seems to have been motivated by a public call to arms against Americans that bin Laden published in the London Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi last February. Issued as an Islamic Fatwa, or holy order, even though bin Laden has no religious authority whatsoever, the broadside by bin Laden and other signers from various Islamic groups called for Muslims to "kill Americans and their allies, civilians and military" wherever they find them.

    These are strong words indeed. But they are words, not deeds. And though it is all too likely that those words have inspired others to such actions as the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam last month, bin Laden himself is unlikely to have personally ordered those bombings or carried them out.

    Unless the Clinton administration can come up with some hard evidence that bin Laden is in fact calling the shots of a vast new anti-American terrorist network, all the present allegations and faceless intelligence-source leaks claiming facts too secret and explosive to be revealed should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Bin Laden may be a dangerous anti-American zealot with a mouth as big as his bankroll. But the evidence so far does not support him being a cerebral Islamic Dr. No moving an army of terrorist troops on a vast world chessboard to checkmate the United States.
    SALON | Aug. 27, 1998
     
  9. Persephone

    Persephone New Member


    And this is why I love you, webmaster. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
     
  10. LaydeezmanCris

    LaydeezmanCris New Member

    Look, i'm no fan of President (well, former) Bush, i did not vote for him in his two presidential campaigns but let's be fair, the man protected America and kept us safe for more than 7 years. I liked Bill Clinton a lot more than Bush but he repeatedly failed to get Bin Laden despite the CIA having him in the crosshairs on many occasions. (See Legacy of Ashes, by Tim Weiner for more information).

    Bush, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, destroyed the Taliban and Al Qaeda and prevented scores of attacks on American soil. Obviously, it has all come at some cost, such as subverting the constitution of the United States and asserting a super unitary executive branch of the government, but only God knows what more could have happened after that shit.

    I think we all just need to get off the haterade and give his due. He may not have been the most competent - or intelligent? - president but he does deserve some due.
     
  11. Dex216

    Dex216 New Member

    You know how that goes Cris. Bush supporters will claim he walked on water and his opponents will claim he is, as Keith Olberman likes to say, "The Worst Person in the World". But in reality he was neither
     
  12. satyricon

    satyricon Guest

    Who told you that the Taliban and al-Qaeda were destroyed? You need to read the papers, because they're both alive and kicking.
     
  13. karmacoma.

    karmacoma. Well-Known Member

    Until somebody gives me hard, quantifiable proof from an independent source (not hearsay, conservative propaganda, spin, or talking points) that the Bush Administration actually foiled further attacks on the homeland, I will believe otherwise.
     
  14. LaydeezmanCris

    LaydeezmanCris New Member

    Well, until the fall of 2005, Al Qaeda was basically in retreat. Bin Laden came out of Bora Tora alive due to the incompetence of the ground forces and the Special Activities Division not wanting to co-operate with the Pentagon, and you know that. The Taliban were routed with such overwhelming force that NATO and Northern Alliance took over the country in only about two weeks.

    Of course, when the Iraq war kicked in, all of the focus went there because by and large, it is an Anglo-American effort. And so the Taliban and Al-Qaeda regrouped because most of the NATO troops have not held up their end of the bargain. Iraq is a less violent place than it was two years ago, largely due to a number of factors, the troop surge included.

    Afghanistan, unlike Iraq, cannot solely be won militarily because of myriad of factors. First of all, as long as Pakistan continues to harbor militants and the Pakistani government is full of Taliban sympathizers, shit won't change there. We badly need Pakistan and the ISI to co-operate with us, while at the same time making sure Pakistan is at peace with India. Also, Afghanistan shares a border with Iran, who have allegedly supplied weapons to terrorists in Afghanistan - as they have been doing in Iraq. It will take a lot more than firing drones into the tribal regions to fix that failed state but if the Taliban and al-Qaeda is not damaged, how come Mullah Omar, Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden are not even in contact with their subordinates? Because they're shook, that's why.

    If anything, you are the one who needs to read the papers a lot more often.
     
  15. satyricon

    satyricon Guest

    Uh no . . . you are the one who had to defend a false statement, not me. Al-Qaeda is now stronger and more cohesive than at any other point since 9/11, which shows that Bush's efforts to stamp them out have proved futile.


    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070506/14alqaeda.htm
     
  16. Serendipity

    Serendipity New Member

    LMAO you just made me laugh out loud karma.
     
  17. Serendipity

    Serendipity New Member

    Bush walk on water ? Nahhh only Obama has those special powers :roll: I'm waiting in eager anticipation for him to part the red sea too.
     
  18. Tinkerbell

    Tinkerbell New Member

    Sure he does, he deserves all the credit!!:D

    Then again, maybe Karma should wait another day or 2 and give the credit to Obama!!:cool:
     
  19. satyricon

    satyricon Guest

    Or close your legs.
     
  20. Soulthinker

    Soulthinker Well-Known Member

    Web and M,you hit it on the head!! Those conservatives and GOP hacks did not take Bin Laden seriously when Clinton was in the chair thinking it was a "wag the dog" moment,also the Bush team did not listen to the reports given to them before 9/11. Now,it is a deep spin to cover their tracks on their responsibiliy on the terrorist attack and blame it on Democrats who mostly lack the backbone to oppose them. Furthermore,the GOP rubberstamp of Bush's policy by the Congress from 2003-7 is robotic in makeup.
     

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