Ok, it's off topic from the WWBM thing.. but just a quick question: Whats so wrong with higher taxes and a public healthcare system not based by market influenced insurance companies? I really want to know, I just don't get it. Isn't it better if people who is rich and has benefited from society pay back a bit to help others.. ?
Robin Hood mentality doesn't work, it de-motivates the wealthy, and those who would like to start to become wealthy, it causes people to lose their ambition and drive, resulting in a very poor country. The fall of communism world wide has shown very, very poor countries emerging from this type of long term mentality. If every time someone has a great idea that they know would sell and make a lot of money, they knew that money would just go to someone else and they would not reap the reward for their invention they probably would not be willing to go to the sacrifices necessary to make progress. A nation who has this type of policy over a long period of time will not prosper. Most capitalists are very giving people, America gives more money to the rest of the world than any other country, believe me, as much as others would like to dictate to America how to run it's financial issues, they really don't want us to listen, because we wouldn't have any money left for them. As to the health insurance question, health insurance is what has caused the prices of health care in America to get so out of hand that many can't afford it. If people had to pay out of pocket for services they the doctors would have to drop prices. If we weren't able to sue for just about anything the doctors wouldn't need as much liability insurance and could drop their prices. So we need health care coverage, but the approach is the question. I have health insurance. I pay a co-pay of 45.00 to go to the Chiropractor, my Chiropractor doesn't take my insurance, so he charges me a discounted rate so I can pay out of pocket, I pay him 33.50 - Go figure. I was able to negotiate a better rate by myself than my health insurance plan could do, and that only compares my co-pay, not what the insurance adds to it.
Sweden and denmark isnt poor, we have the highest taxes in the world? Im not talking communism really.. communism obviously doesnt work.. But I really cant see denmark or sweden "falling" and turning into poor countries all of the sudden. And we have lots of huge companies with great ideas that emerged from sweden.. so the tax thing really hasnt stopped anyone. Thing is, that tax cuts doesnt make people less greedy really, they move their companies anyway. America has 301 million inhabitants. You are the biggest western nation, off course you give more money then the rest of us.. But at least sweden still gives a lot of money and help. I really don't understand the insurance system (and I'm a bit at loss with the glossary, since here, there is a limit to how much I have to pay. Thats all I need to know, no insurances, unless I'm going abroad).. But I dont understand your stans really.. good or bad? change it or not? The ultimate goal would be good health care everyone can afford. And good preventative care. I'm kinda guessing most people would like that.. the only problem people usually have with it is if its gonna be payed for with taxes. "WHAT? Am I gonna pay for that crackheads/idiots/foreigners healthcare?".. my answer would be yes. If they had money, they would pay for yours, and good healthcare gives them a chance to give back to society. There is actually some sort of statistics somewhere that shows that a society that takes care of the people "at the bottom" is wealthier then societies that don't... hmm.
Yes, given that it is society which allows for the advent, manufacturing and sale of commodities, the wealthy do owe more to it for their successes.
My answer would be - What difference does it make, he can't afford his co-pay anyway. Really I don't see the answer as you state it. I know there could be a good system somewhere, but why do the Canadians so often complain they can't get the care they need, and why do they come to the US for "better care" Why do Mexicans who have a relatively cheap medical system, come to the US for "better care" even when this means they will pay much more money? That's not really a question, it's the point. The US Medical system is also part of our Capitalistic society, it is the best around because of capitalism, if you invoke a communistic mentality over it, you will lose the motivation for quality. I'm not saying we don't need to improve it, but really why do so many people from other countries care so much about it? Why does it matter to you at all?
Tinkerbell, by gods, it's not communism! Communism is about revoking private property back to the state, and in marxism (socialism) about eliminating the bourgois and the state and provide for everyone accordance to need. (The state being a symbol for oppression and also dissolving itself when the people is free.) A higher tax doesn't do that. I really don't want to use Sweden as an example, but it's the only country I know fairly well. We are not communistic, we are absolutly not poor, and we have a very high tax that is related to how much you make.. (i e, I would pay about 10% income tax, my dad pays around 45%) We also have a very strong middle class (we define that a bit different then you, what you define as middle class is defined here as upper workers class, probably since we don't have as many poor as you do.. ? I'm not sure) that stands for the majority of the consuming, and is also sort of what our society "runs on". Quite a lot of people go on to higher ed here, whitch is free and you are entitled to a loan and support from the goverment for seven years when you are in higher education, so it's possible to study for everyone, regardless of your family's economic situation. Child care doesn't cost more than 3% than the income of the household, so that both parents can get back to work quicker, and pay tax, consum, support the society. The dad is entitled to a specific amount of paternity leave, so that he doesn't miss out on his kids childhood. There is a safety net, so if someone looses his/hers job, you wont have to sell the house and so on... So on. If it wasn't for the high taxes, this couldn't be. But, now we switched goverment and they want to widen the gap between rich and poor, which basically means more criminality, more drug abuse, more child abuse, more misery. On the subject of the crackheads medicare, I actually don't know what co-pay is. But you know, in a functioning medicare system he would get help, regardless off his economic status, and your tax my friend, would helped saving peoples life. (to be dramatiq)
I think this is a wasted arguement Scylla. Alot not ALL Americans, are scared of the change not thinking about the overall benefit to the country at large, also there seems to be a lack of trust about other americans ie they would all abuse the system. I do not think it would hinder growth in the states ref healthcare leaps, there will allways be a private system in everycountry for those who want 1st class with bows on top!! In britain we all have a right to free NHS healthcare whether you make 0 - to some godawful number so high i can not think of one, but if you pay for any part of your healthcare private, you then have to go private for the entire problem, this is to keep it fair ie NO topping up your healthcare!! What i really dont understand is that free healthcare is something enjoyed by your European counterparts, i would think that there should be shame in not looking after your own people. Keep the RICH, RICH and the poor, poor!!
:smt042 Nonsense. I have relatives in Canada. A few have dual citizenship and live in the U.S., and they return to Canada when they have serious medical issues. Additionally, two of my uncles are practicing physicians in Canada and my mother went to medical school there, so I know more about health care in Canada than most Americans. There are problems in the Canadian health care system, but on the whole it functions much better than the U.S. system does for people who aren't wealthy. Scylla, I implore you to take Francie's advice and abandon this argument immediately. You're not going to get any American who subscribes to the type of political beliefs that Tinkerbell does to admit that there are surfeits of benefits to social welfare systems. Most view any system of taxation as "communism", refuse to accept the fact that the wealthy, who in their estimation are harmed by increased taxation and strong government, consitently benefit from government intervention in the marketplace and spend an immense amount of money lobbying elected officials to do their bidding at the expense of the taxes paid by the middle class, and many will become apoplectic if you ever mention the painful truth that the middle class in European countries with strong social safety nets has a higher standard of living at this point than the American "middle class."
I understand from your warnings that this was stupid topic to bring up O____o. Nah, I already knew that.. What I wanted to know, was the actuall political argument for it. Not the propaganda stuff.. I mean, I grew up with leftish politics and all I've heard from the right has been filtered through the leftishness.. So I figured I'd love an actuall real explanation to how low tax market economy-liberal politics actually is good for the people. But as long as everything else then american rightwing (here the republicans assemble when of our smallest parties, conservative christians. They barely make it in to the goverment (need 4% of the votes for that)) is seen as communist.. it's rather hard. I still leave it open, if someone feel like explaining the long term positive effect on social structures and economy of a market liberal/low tax-political system is, Im all ears.
What do you think my hard earned Dollars are? Public property? Sorry, if you don't understand my argument. I don't think we'll ever change each others mind, I wasn't trying to change yours, only answering your question as I see it. Also, why do Europeans care so freakin much what we do in the US? It's not like we're asking you to foot the bill. Shouldn't you worry more about what goes on in your half of the world? Not trying to argue, but I'd rather give my money to people who need it voluntarily than to have the government take it away and give it to them. I do help pay for my parents/and other family members to get health care that they need. I also support a number of mission endeavors that provide health care and much more to others who can't afford it. I am taxed at about 35% of my income, I tithe another 10% to my local church and give to others above that, so really, I already give more than your father pays in taxes. Taxing me more only lets the US government decide who gets the money. And as far as I can tell they've been partial to special interest groups and stupidity like "job creation" which really means tearing up perfectly good roads just so they can pay somebody to rebuild them. A lot of the problem is that we don't trust the government to do what it should with the money. If I knew where it was going 100% for sure, I may not be so adamantly against it.
Wow, I didn't know you were the voice for all 300,000,000 Americans? By the way, you should also read more. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-healthcare1-2008dec01,0,333608.story Although a single-payer system seems "off the table", any form of consensus on universal care is a step forward.
So, what you claim is that to pay tax is a communistic act? Now there is a new one.. I'm not trying to change anyones mind, I just wanted a decent understandable argument that was a bit deeper then the ordinary ones. The reason we freak is because if you fall, we fall. We do care what happens here too, but (and I'm really sorry to drag this into this) europe isn't one country. USA is. That means you get treated differently then the whole of europe. Also, USA build military bases in europe, put missile systems here pointing towards russia (I live almost next to russia.. I have a reason to worry), the CIA or equivalent takes people out of my country with the help of secret aerotraffic and put them in prisons... USA have swedes locked up in guantanamo bay amongst other places.. Some of us aren't allowed even in your country because of our political ideas, since our goverment shares intelligence about our political standpoints with yours.. even though US citizens are allowed in here. US record companies forced the whole EU to change their copyright laws... And no, I do not bring all this up because I want a flaming row with you about your country vs mine, because nothing good comes from that, but please understand that all the USA does, affects me, daily. Our economy is falling to pieces, thanks partially to USAs economic policies... I have no idea about your tax system and how hardly taxed you are and frankly I don't care much about your exact tax.. But glad to hear you give away so much money. It wasnt a try to state a competition between how good you are at voluntarily give away money, comparing to my dad. I was trying to explain the system. You know, here you can actually find out quite well where the tax goes. It's sort of part of the system, to know where the money goes? That the goverment should be open and willingly show the people what they do? As I said. I didn't try to change anything. I wanted a decent argument on how a market liberal economy could work beneficially for it's people. That was all.
I'm speaking of like minded Americans, you know "conservative, capitalistic, Americans" obviously not you, but I did notice that you didn't exactly offer an answer to scylla's question either. Yes, I read it, it looks like they are planning to spend massive amounts of tax dollars and there is still a lot of debate ahead, and this is even from a very liberal news paper. Of course the leftest system if "off the table" because they couldn't get it passed. No one denies that something needs to be done, and there will, I'm sure be a lot of compromise before anything is agreed on and it will be somewhere in between what we have and what the far left would like to see.
I wasn't comparing my goodness to your father, just pointing out numbers as you had. I feel sorry for your father that he has to work 45 % of his time to pay for services that he may not be choosing. But then I'm not sure he isn't choosing them so if he's happy doing it that's fine for him. We have had our economic system in place for a very long time, and it has done our country and our people very well, the very fact that the rest of the world is so greatly effected by our prosperity or lack thereof should show you how strong it has made our economy. In spite of the most recent issues we are still the strongest economy in the world. You can tell that by the fact that the dollar is on the raise against most foreign currency. The most recent issues and the fall of our markets is debatable as to whose fault it is, I don't feel like getting into the whole debate here but there is good reason behind the argument that the liberal policies enacted during the Clinton administration have had a great part in this downfall. You can research it at length if you are willing to listen to the arguments on the side of conservatives long enough to learn something. You said you wanted a real understanding of it. You can't get that from liberal news media that is so biased it won't even show the errors of history unless they were linked to conservatives. And I know there are a lot of conservatives who have made plenty of mistakes. Remember every argument has two sides. Neither of which is entirely correct.
