Is it always a question of race?

I am curious. This is a question for the bm of the site:

After doing a lot of reading on this site and after a few discussions with the bm that I've dated, I want to ask: Is it always a question of race?

Let me explain: I have read in a few posts here that a lot of bm are hesitant to approach a ww unless they know for sure that she's into bm. I can understand wanting to make sure that someone is into "your type" before approaching them...(I mean, heck, I feel the same way in the sense that I want to make sure that a guy is into curvy women if I'm gonna hit on him ) But if the girl rebuffs your advances, do you automatically assume that it's because you're black? I mean, is there room for other possibilities in your mind (she's just not interested in tall/short/buff/fat/young/old guys... or maybe she could have a boyfriend already)?

Honestly, I mean no disrespect here. True I am a ww, so I have NO IDEA what it's like to be black and to be a victim of racism. But I am curious and this question stems from more than just what I've read here... I've heard a bm say that someone was rude to him at work and right away state that the person is racist... but at the same time, I know that this bm can be a complete asshole at times!

So, what's the deal? In your mind, is the way people react to you always a question of race - whether it's white women or other people?

 

Pearl, because of the history of slavery and hatred almost exclusively toward black men(how whites have been raised think of anything dark as dangerous, scary, bad, dirty and only about sex) it is hard to seperate what is fact and what is fiction in a black man approaching a white woman. It is a dangerous thing to do in the South, where I was born and raised, to just walk up to a white woman and try to start up a conversation. Many men were lynched and murdered for just looking at a white woman and so the legacy is a not just a fear of rejection but a fear of reaction and retribution.

In the north, whites many seem a bit more open, but believe you me(having lived up north for 20 years) its not as easy as it sounds to just walk up to a white woman and show interested without there being a since of fear that she may have some racist brothers of working class ethnic origin(irish or italian) in places like Philly, Boston, New York or Chicago--and causing an attack(howard beach and bensonhurst New York comes to mind).

I have approached white women, and been reject before, and then watched them accept a dance or drink from a white guy not 5 minutes later. perhaps it is because I dont fit their stereotype of a black man--i dont have a rap, i dont come from the ghetto, i dont speak with broken english, dont wear feminine clothing or gold anything. It seems the women often like the stereotype of the black or other minority quite alot in the Northeast and say it out loud actually.

it is very hard not knowing if we are being treated like any other man or is it because we are black! White America is so afraid of discussing race and racism openly and honestly, that i dont know if we will ever know what they are thinking or feeling for us. I think that is why I often have a hard time meeting a woman we me and my white friends go out. my friends meet and chat up women every weekend, but i usually do not get that luxury. lots of women are afraid what their friends my think, or their family. they may have some fears based on past experiences--which is unfair to the black male for he doesnt represent all black men.

Racism has made it so much more difficult to be honest and human in our society

 

Yeah, because of the racism in this country, there's will always be that little voice in my head wondering if my race is going to play a role in her liking me or not. As sad as it may sound, i don't know that there will ever, ever be a time when that doesn't come to mind. I'll always be thinking, and wondering about it if she does in fact, shoot me down.

 

absolutely, since so many women i see on this site and others (NOT ALL WOMEN, I must add) who come in the personals and on the forum talking about black men as sexual beings primarily and not talking about black culture as an interest, or the strength, character and values of black men.

I am astounded by the many white men who send their wives and girlfriends on these sites to have sex with black men while they watch. to me that is sick but it is also racist. it is like we are a joy ride or an experiment for their pleasure or to prove something. Any self respecting black man would reject these ads and things out right, but we know alot of brothas who are still in the slave mentality or have low self esteem and will become a lab monkey for the jollies of white men.

so, yes i agree, its not easy to trust that a white woman is always sincere usually based on the experiences many of us have had with whites in a racist society like America, Canada and Europe.

 

Thanks for your replies, guys.

Tucker: thank you also for the geography lesson, as I am up in Canada!

I can completely understand the historical factor.. and I appreciate the fact that it makes it difficult for bm to not see race as an "issue"... but, I have to admit (I'm being completely honest here....) that a little part of me thinks that some bm have more issues with race than anyone else.

Now, I know that I can't fully understand, which is why I ask for your insight.

I have a friend who ALWAYS makes almost everything about race. He's always seeing race before anything else... the fact that a black man (Jamie Foxx) won an Oscar as best actor the fact that our new Governor General is black (note: Canada is a parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy. This means Canadians recognize The Queen of England as our Head of State. Canada's Governor General carries out Her Majesty's duties in Canada on a daily basis and is Canada's de facto Head of State.) He's always asking me how I feel about these events, but in relation to race... and you see, I don't see Jamie Foxx as a black actor.... I see him as a great actor. And I don't listen to "black" music and I don't watch "black" movies. I listen to music that I like and I see movies that I want to see. Music is music, no matter who's performing it! That's all.

I am not saying that I am blind to race... it just seems as though it's not as big a deal to me.

Maybe I'm just young and naive! :lol:

 

no, you are not young and naive, necessarily. there are alot of people with racial and social hang ups. here in the US, people will talk about race too, about everything being racial and it is mostly ridiculous. many of them are poor and uneducated who do it, and others are social climbers who use race and racism to advance their position and cause. Take for instance the Katrina incident. People said that it was because of Bush being racist that people didnt get out of New Orleans--when it was the Black Mayor of New Orleans' job to secure the buses necessary to get his citizens out. ( dont get me wrong i blame FEMA too, but Bush and Race had nothing to do with it). Also, we have a black woman secretary of State, and other black and minority leaders and they get no respect from many blacks just because of their party affliation--the so called Pro Blacks, even let liberal whites call black people Uncle Tom and Aunt Jemima on the radio because it suits their cause.

people who always see race or racism are usually people who have not matured and often blame white for things they are personally responsible for. I turned on the radio one day and was listening to a wonderful classic music piece. a black woman comes into my office and when she heard the music she looked at me and asked, do you always listen to white music? I told her no, I listen to music--i dont know what color it is and told her it was the Portland Oregon Symphony conducted by a black man(that shut her up).. It is most uneducated or miseducated black folk who are afraid of change, anything different or afraid of being equal. We have many many whites who see race in everything too. That is why we have racial jokes that dont ever have whites as the brunt of the joke, but always at the minority or womans expense. that is why we have ghettos and problems with minorities getting adequate housing in this country. It is why Apartheid in South Africa lasted so long, why Jim Crow lasted over 100 years after the ending of slavery, why we have Gentleman's agreements not to allow blacks or Jews of brown minorities in certain parts of the city, why we have law suits against companies like Texaco for its racist hiring practices, why women talk about the glass ceiling, and why my First Nation brothers up there in Canada still catch racist hell like our Native Americans do.

Race is the dirty word in White households. As soon as you mention it, they want to change the subject. It is why still white girls write on here that they have a problem"they love their black boyfriends but afraid to tell Dad". If white America, Canada, and Europe were truly non racist then they would have no problems with Mocha babies, with blacks marrying their daughters and being presidents of their corporations and country. Unfortunately thats not the reality.

But NO, not everything is race or racism based

 

Thanks for your POV. I think that too and I thought that I was the only one and that it was because I'm a ww - you know, with the "ww privilege" and all of that.

I mean, I have a friend who always thinks that everything has to do with her weight... "he was mean to me because I'm fat... she looked at me funny cause I'm fat..." That kinda thing.. and most of the time I just want to yell at her: "NO... he was mean to you cause you were a rude bitch to him!! And she looked at you funny cause you've got a booger hanging out of your nose!!" That's how I sometimes feel when people play the race card.

Yes, it's quite unfortunate indeed... but I think that our society is making progress. We'll get there.

One of my all-time favorite singers says in a song about an IR relationship: (loosely translated from French) "Times are changing beginning with you and me. Tomorrow men (as in humans) will do all that seemed strange today."

 

with respect, i agree with you about your friend and I hate that. I grew up in the US South in the 60s, 70s and 80s. I was usually the only black person in the social crowds, in my sunday school, at school, etc. Sure, I knew that I would not be able to date while growing up, but I didnt go around whining and blaming people for it. I turned to the non black and non white population of Latinos(Mexican Americans) to be friends with and date. I went to my prom with a Mexican girl, my first love was Mexican. I

"If Life gives you lemons, make Lemonade" as the saying goes. Everyone seems to looking to scapegoat their problems on other people and it is pathetic. Sure, i was lonely in college-i went to an all black college in Mississippi and I was treated just as badly as I was in High School among whites. I didnt get dates because I was black in HS, I didnt get dates in College cause I was too white acting.

I just waited and transferred to a New England elite Ivy League University my second year, where I could date whomever I desired and did.

blacks can be just as prejudiced to one another as whites can be to blacks and I am sure whites treat each other with a lot of meanness as well.

I find the contradictions very funny and sad actually. Black women to me have been far more unaccepting of me than white women. Southern Whites treated me just as good as many Northern whites.

I think alot of it is class based as well. poor blacks and whites can have a chip on their shoulder and when they find out I come from a wealth background they because mean and defensive.

I know that middle and upper class girls when they are approached by lower class men, they also retreat into their classist backgrounds.

so everyone does some form of it

 

Before considering racism, it is an important methodological point to distinguish historically when the concept of "racism" became known as such. Historians disagree largely when "race" emerged as a concept, ranging from those who believe aspects of it have always existed among humans, to those who place it as a concept separate from general distrust of "difference" (in which case it emerged either in the Age of Exploration or even as late as the 19th century). In any event, the division of people into discrete groups, usually based on external anatomical features or assumed geographic origin, and theories about how many "races" there were, and theories of how to "rank" these races against each other, existed long before they acquired any sort of distinct stigma against them. Fear of sexual relations between Colored men and White women was central to the tenets of racism. During the late-19th century, a number of thinkers emphasized that these views were morally and ethically unjust, but this was a significantly minority opinion. Even those who opposed institutions such as slavery often did so not on the basis of equality of races, but on overall equality in treatment of "mankind".

In the 20th century, however, there began a growth of thought that theories of racial "superiority" and "inferiority" were inherently problematic and wrong. Much of the discourse relating to racial theory of this sort came out of the United States in the years after the American Civil War, while European thinkers began to think of people in terms of linguistic "nations" more than they did "races." The term "racism", according to the Oxford English Dictionary, emerged in the early 1930s as distinct from the "theories of race" which had existed for at least a hundred years before that.

A turning point in racial thinking came with the rise of Adolf Hitler's Nazism, which built much of its political agenda upon the rhetoric of anti-Semitism and overt statements of racial superiority and inferiority. Full opposition to these ideas did not begin until the outbreak of World War II, and a large part of Allied propaganda efforts were in labeling Nazi Germany as a "racist" state, and distinguishing their own states from them. By the end of the war, the association of racism with the Nazis, and the genocidal policies they undertook, thoroughly established the meme that "racism" was something to be opposed. In the United States, the experience of the Civil Rights Movement further emphasized this point. Now, "racism" is seen as something entirely to be opposed by almost all mainstream voices, though there is little agreement over what is "racism". It is worth remembering this, when looking at current concepts of "racism". In hindsight, many eminent scientists, philosophers, and statesmen appear "racist" by late-20th century standards, though the recognition of the historical nature of these judgements is deemed by many to exonerate these figures or governments for their ideas or actions.

Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequalities among "races". Although some speakers attempt to express a semantic distinction by using the word racism rather than racialism (or vice versa), many treat the terms as synonymous (see below).

Racism may be divided in three major subcategories: individual racism, structural racism, and ideological racism.

Examples of individual racism include an employer not hiring a person, failing to promote or giving harsher duties or imposing harsher working conditions, or firing, someone, in whole or in part due to his race.

Researchers at the University of Chicago (Marianne Bertrand) and Harvard University (Sendhil Mullainathan) found in a 2003 study that there was widespread discrimination in the workplace against job applicants whose names were merely perceived as "sounding black." These applicants were 50% less likely than candidates perceived as having "white-sounding names" to receive callbacks for interviews, no matter their level of previous experience. Results were stronger for higher quality resumes. The researchers view these results as strong evidence of unconscious biases rooted in the country's long history of discrimination. This is an example of structural racism, because it shows a widespread established belief system. Another example is apartheid in South Africa, and the system of Jim Crow laws in the United States of America. Another source is lending inequities of banks, and so-called redlining.

 

The short answer is no. I usually think either she does not like me for whatever reason - and that may or may not be racial - or she's got issues - and that may or may not be racial. It all depends on the response. Sometimes I just don't know in which case I might try again.

I tend to think that always making the problem racial limits the effectiveness of the solution. There are times when it is racial. There are times when race has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

No, I just accept it and move on. I don't assume anything is racially motivated unless they come out and say it or call me a racial slur. They may just be an asshole and treat everyone badly.

Tuckereed,I can relate to what you're saying. When I was in High school I studied alot and didn't dress thuggish. The problem was that I went to a suburban school which was mixed but mostly white. Everyone in that school tryed to be preps,thugs,etc. So I had black and white people telling me that I'm not black enough. It was ridiculous that these people thought that getting good grades,studying,etc defined your race.I'm glad I was able to carve out my own identity and not fall in with any of those morons.

 

I admit that whenever a white girl rejects me I automatically blame it on "she's not into black guys". Does that make her racist? No. But usually that is my first reaction. Is it right? No. If a spanish or black girl rejects me, I am more likely to say to myself, "ok she just doesn't like ME." I have never had a white girl who I KNOW is into black guys reject me (unless she had a boyfriend when we met, which has happened to me a MILLION times, so I've met alot of potential pussy in my short life that I'll never know If I could've tapped). I have never had a black girl reject me. Some hispanic girls have rejected me and obviously many white girls have as well. But any girl (no matter her race) who i know is into black men, has been attracted to me.

I KNOW from experience from what many black and hispanic girls have told me that I am an attractive black male. Sometimes, yea I do get down when I hit a dry spell and white girls are not responding and I must remind myself, "Hey, I am not ugly, So they must have a problem with my skin." I am not raking in the pussy like I probably should because my fetish is white girls. And from what I have experienced, I'd say 75% of the white girls I have met were your typical white girls and 25% were the type you KNOW fuck black guys. Therefore since these are the women I hit on, I have about a 25% chance of getting laid.

As far as knowing if a girl is into black guys, there are ways:

1. Seeing what kind of music she likes (even though not all white girls who like rap fuck black guys, it means she is open to hip hop culture so it is a step in the right direction).

2. Asking her if she thinks certain sexy black celebrities are attractive (if she cannot admit someone like Usher or Taye Diggs is hot, you KNOW she is NOT into black men! Now if she DOES like them, does that mean she'd be into ME? Of course not).

2. Seeing how she talks (hip hop slang means she might be "down")

....and any possible other signs that show she knows alot about hip hop culture or likes something about black culture are always good.

So as I was saying, I naturally assume when a white girl rejects me as my first thought that she is not into black men, mainly because I know I can't be that bad looking for all these cheesy goody goody white girls to act shady (If I was so ugly, why do black girls and ghetto white girls like my baby Tessa love me so much and think I am so sexy?). Is it possible for a white girl to be into black men but reject him because he might be too skinny or too fat or just doesn't like his personality? Of course. Is it possible that some of the white girls that have turned me down just did not find me attractive (or maybe too skinny, I get that alot)? Of course.

I guess it is just my own internal issues with certain white girls why I always automatically assume that when someone rejects me or does not like me that it is racially motivated (although most if not all black people probably jump to that conclusion ANYTIME any white person is mean..we cannot help it, we are just conditioned to be wired that way due to hundreds of years of racism and slavery).

 

I guess I'm no exception when relating to what all the other fellas are saying, and I would have to relate, since I know what they are all talking about.

However, I won't go into historical facts, rumors, and legacies. I'll just stick to the present times today.



I should open a bank account and save 1 dollar of money, for every time I hear white people complain and nag us to death about the race card, :roll: when that itself IS the race card, let alone obsess over 'race' and racism WAY MORE than we do, if you take into account all of the 'Aryan Pride' websites, discriminating housing/hiring/lawsuit practices, hate crimes, segregated neighborhoods (churches, bars, clubs, stores, restaurants, banks, MALLS, etc.) that are out there, even to this very day, along with many other factors that we have to beware as a people when faced with the white public world as a whole. Then again, maybe we DO make everything about 'race' more than whites, but I guess we have no choice, now do we? :? We might as well take the blame for this one too, along with anything and everything else. :wink: If you have to live, and experience the kind of lives that we have to live as black people in the world, then I guess you would make everything about race yourself, and, keeping in mind the way blacks are racially abused/discriminated against without considering their points-of-view on it, or even caring, would also be making things about race also. (At least you're not doing THAT)

Especially when it all lasts for centuries on end (lynchings, beatings, raping, slurs, caricaturing, etc.) and is still happening, but thinking and talking about these things would be 'making everything about race' because we tend to do that, right? I guess so, but then, you white people should see why we do, at least by now. What's even more sad is that not enough of you do in this present day and age.

(I'm just twisting your hair with a forked comb, that's all, so, just work with me here )

My playful sarcasm in this message is a way of telling you that we black people (especially black men) not only have to still deal with the kind of hatred, prejudice, hypocrisy, bigotry, and paranoia in the world that has existed towards us ever since the European Slave Trade began, but we also have to deal with the double-standard naivety that goes along with it when we are questioned in this type of manner. More often than not, those who do ask us questions like the one you are asking, are either racist with a hidden agenda, (not saying you are, because I don't think you are, but I have had heard/read similar questions like yours from actual racists) or just not paying much attention to anti-black racism, and when you say that you know a black man who makes everything about 'race', well, ask yourself, why he may do that, along with acting like an asshole. Maybe he is an asshole, but does that make him racist? Does it automatically make him wrong about racism in any way either?

Now, there are white people who not only play the race card more than we do in order to justify their 'privilege', but to also stir up shit so that old traditions will be back by popular demand (Examples: racist site and Fox News) and this is one of the things that creates more friction between the different ethnic groups of people. Whenever I hear about 'black people being racist' from certain white people, I often hear things pointed and directed at ALL black people because of it, like 'black people this' and 'you people should/shouldn't say/do/think that' so, I guess with me, you'll have a 'lost cause' :lol: since I don't see how whenever one of us is, 'this or that', it somehow has to pique your or any other white person's interest in black racism, but not white racism.

There are people who DO make everything about 'race' from all demographics worldwide, be it rich or poor(in fact, that's how some of them BECAME rich or poor and remain that way) fat or skinny, big or small, whatever, the list goes on, but that's because, to them, if nothing isn't about' race', then it either doesn't matter, or it's not even worth the time. Such thinking may be a waste of time in the grand scheme of things, but such thinking is what provokes those with a higher learning/comprehension, to expand what they know even further, maybe so much in a way that we will be able to reach certain folks who constantly obsess over how much 'race matters.'

Still, in a lot of ways here in the US, and in some other nations like Canada, France, Italy, Spain, Saudi Arabia, and RUSSIA, 'race' really does matter when it comes down to anything and everything, and' race' is a milestone in many foreign cultures too, so that's another part of why it probably always will. :wink:



Thus ends my devil's advocate lecture.

 

If he is always making everything racial, YES. He's an asshole in my opinion for that alone. News Flash! Conspiracy Brother annoys the hell out of black people too. "Ok, why in pool does that white ball knock around all the colored balls." Shut the fuck up! You want to do something constructive. Go to fucking law school. No one wants to hear the point repeated all the time. People have other things to do. That is not to say that the point NEVER needs to be made, just that there is a time and a place for it and its not everytime and everywhere.

 

To some level, I can try to understand what the fellas are saying. I do however can't say that I have ever been rejected by a white woman before. The reason is that I naturally tend to be attracted (enough to want to go on a date) with a woman that I know a little bit about. I am not the sort of guy to meet a random woman and start chatting her up. A woman's attractiveness grows in relation to her character (that being said, I do have to find the woman attractive at first glance. Otherwise, I won't have the patience to be a judge of her character). This naturally rules out any outright rejection. I don't think it is by design, but the women I have gone out with tend to show interest in me (even though they initially don't have a clue that I could be interested because I do a very good job of concealing such feelings).

On a side note, I realized that a lot of women (particularly the sort of women I am interested in tend to be intimidated by me. I was told by my ex-girlfriend (and other women friends) and I don't know why.

That being said, I think being Nigerian, I wouldn't take rejection by a woman too seriously. Part of it has to do with my Nigerian background. I realized that some women, even when they are obviously in love still play"
hard to get". Perseverance is usually expected in a mate. Only with patience can a guy (horny or otherwise) hit the score!

The other thing has to do with my personal observation of women. Women, like all of us have fantasies that are based on what they know. For example, a girl who has never met any black guy will most likely not fantasize about a black guy. Instead she will fantasize about the kind of men she is used to (in most cases). This is where I come in. My job as a potential mate is to merge my realities into hers. In other words, I would hope that after she meets me, I would have influenced her enough to change the scope of her fantasies. This isn't an easy task and it takes a whole lot of time. I don't mind waiting a long time, as long as the girl is worth it. At first, the woman (girl) may not even notice me, but as our lives become inter women (be it through other friends, work or other circumstances), she starts to see me in a new light. This not only occurs in dating but also life in general. I have had people tell me that knowing me has really changed how they view others in general. Of course I myself have been positively influenced this way in the past.

To answer the OP, I don't think race would be the major "why" on my mind were I to be rejected by a white girl, unless the rejection had racial overtones.

To be completely honest though, I do realize that I don't like it when a white woman catches me looking at her (this rarely ever happens). I personally don't mind being caught by say, a Latina. The reason for this is not a dislike for white women (this should be obvious as I wouldn't be here if I really hated white women), but because of my dislike of the stereotype that BM find WW irresistible. I can't help but feel as though I am contributing to the continuation of the stereotype.

 

Yes, well, I wasn't sure how much of a 'Conspiracy Brother' he actually was, since all she said was that he makes everything about race, and that he was an asshole.

And, I agree that 'Conspiracy Brother' is a pain in the ass, but I didn't wanna think or insinuate that this particular man was one, after all, he could be experiencing racism where he works, or even in his own neighborhood where he lives.

 

Even if he is experiencing racism, its still not practical to make everything about race. Once you start doing that you've lost the battle, if not the war.

Racism IMO causes people to stop thinking and lose focus. Instead of
actually going through the possible scenarios, just insert racism anywhere where you don't know the answer and the interaction occurred between two people of different races and you've automatically got your conclusion.

 

I'm with you on that note, but like I said, I just didn't wanna assume anything at first.