Respect where it's due: BM/WW IR in History

Discussion in 'The Attraction Between White Women and Black Men' started by Silvercosma, Nov 26, 2006.

  1. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    This one is for you, nobledruali [​IMG] and this one for you, Soulthinker [​IMG]

    I truly appreciate your appreciation!
  2. jeverage

    jeverage New Member

    Attack Response


    I have said nothing out of the way on this board, just making my own contribution like the rest, which is in support of the knowledge that Silver is providing. It seems since I have joined this website, you have been on a mission to "pick me" in order to get me into an argument with you online. I refuse to engage with you. I am enjoying all the knowledge that I am learning on this forum. As I mentioned before, I enjoy the different discussions on this site because of the different points of views--it's a learning experience.

    I am not trying to be your enemy. I would appreciate it if you would stop treating me like I am.

    Peace and Blessings,

  3. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    And since music is a hot topic on this board lately ...

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor and his wife Jessie Sarah Fleetwood Walmisley

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor was an English composer. At the time of his death he was a Lecturer at Croydon Conservatoire, and Professor of Composition at Trinity College of Music, Crystal Palace School of Art and Music, and Guildhall School of Music.

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor was born on August 15, 1875 in Croydon, a suburb of London, England. His father was Daniel Peter Taylor, a native of Sierra Leone. Daniel Taylor trained as a physician at King's College, London. After graduating he found his race was a barrier to maintaining a medical practice in the United Kingdom. As a result he returned to Africa permanently around the time of Samuel's birth.

    Young Samuel was raised by his English mother and stepfather, but his musical education was overseen by Col. Herbert A. Walters, who belonged to the church choir in which the boy sang. Samuel also studied violin with a local musician as a child.

    Little Samuel Coleridge-Taylor

    When the time came for college, Walters obtained an admission interview for Samuel at the Royal College of Music. That led to his enrollment as a violin student in 1890. Two years later he switched to composition and was taught by Charles Villiers Stanford.

    Young Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1900)

    Pan-Africanism, race and the USA

    Very early on Samuel Coleridge-Taylor began collaborating with the African American poet and author Paul Lawrence Dunbar (1872-1906). Writing in Africana Encyclopedia, Roanne Edwards says of Coleridge-Taylor:
    "He was also a leading exponent of Pan-Africanism, which emphasized the importance of a shared African heritage as the touchstone of black cultural identity."

    Coleridge-Taylor also took a passionate interest in the issues of race, the politics of colonial freedom, and in his own African background. After reading the work of the African-American writer W.E.B. Dubois, he attended the first Pan-African conference in London in 1900 and became part of a loose circle of black activism. His name was already well known in black America. In 1901 a Samuel Coleridge-Taylor Choral Society had been founded by black singers in Washington DC. Coleridge-Taylor's first visit three years later was a grand occasion.

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor choral society founded by black singers in Washington DC (1906)

    Coleridge-Taylor rose to prominence in 1898, the year he turned 23, on the strength of two works. The first was his Ballade in A Minor. It was commissioned for the prestigious annual Three Choirs Festival at the suggestion of the British composer Edward Elgar (1857-1934). The piece was a critical and popular success.

    Coleridge-Taylor's second major composition of 1898 was his musical Hiawatha's Wedding Feast, for which he is best known. The work is a setting of verses from Song of Hiawatha by the American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. He conducted its premier to great acclaim. The work was staged hundreds of times in the United Kingdom alone during the next 15 years. The publicity surrounding Hiawatha's Wedding Feast created a huge demand for tours both within the United Kingdom and abroad. Among the most important for the composer's career were three tours of North America in 1904, 1906 and 1910. The first concert of the 1904 tour was in Washington, D.C. The Coleridge-Taylor Society, an African American choir, appeared with the United States Marine Band, with the composer at the podium. During his stay in the capital Coleridge-Taylor visited President Theodore Roosevelt at the White House.

    In May and June 1910 he made his third and last visit to America. Boston, Detroit, New York, and Connecticut were on his schedule. He was the guest conductor at the Litchfield County Choral Union Festival at Norfolk, Connecticut. Such was his fame that just two racist whites withdrew from what they perceived as the humiliation of working under a black.

    Family life

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, wife and children

    Coleridge-Taylor married Jessie Sarah Fleetwood Walmisley (1869-1962), on Dec. 30, 1899. She was a pianist and a fellow student at the Royal College of Music, where they met.

    They had a son, Hiawatha (1900-1980), and a daughter, Gwendolyn (later Avril, 1903-1998), who were both to have musical careers.

    Jessie and the two Coleridge-Taylor children

    It would not have been surprising if Coleridge-Taylor's private and domestic life had suffered under the pressure of work, but there is plenty of evidence about the value he placed on his family life. The composer Havergal Brian bumped into the couple in Hanley and wrote about them as "...strikingly winsome, and with Hiawatha in mind, I pictured them as journeying to the wedding feast". According to Havergal Brian's account, the man himself seemed to be self-confident and at ease in his environment: "Coleridge-Taylor spoke in short, swift sentences, linked to many pleasantries. When he mounted the platform, he was confronted with seventy players of the Hallé orchestra and a chorus of eighty only. At the first entry of the chorus, he stopped suddenly and, addressing the orchestra, said rather dryly 'Gentlemen, half marks throughout!’".

    Christmas card: Samuel, Jesse, Gwendolyn (Avril) and Hiawatha (1906)

    But Coleridge-Taylor's success and fame did not exempt him from racial harassment. Most painful was the fact that his wife Jessie was also a target of abuse. His daughter records his response to the groups of local youths who would repeatedly shower him with insulting comments about the colour of his skin: “When he saw them approaching along the street he held my hand more tightly, gripping it until it almost hurt.”

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor: the last formal portrait

    On September 1, 1912 Samuel Coleridge-Taylor died of pneumonia complicated by exhaustion from overwork. He was just 37 years old. Although he took on an excessive work load of composing, conducting and teaching, he still had difficulty supporting his family. When he published a work of music he received only a small one-time payment from the publisher. The circumstances of his death contributed greatly to the subsequent adoption of a system of royalties for composers in the U.K.

    Jeffrey Green writes of the legacy the composer left for musicians of African descent:

    By including African, Afro-American, and Afro-Caribbean elements in his compositions in melody and in title, as well as by being visibly and proudly of African descent, the music and the achievements of Samuel Coleridge-Taylor had made black concert musicians proud and able to walk tall, especially in America where the compositions of European masters dominated in concert hall programs.

    Coleridge-Taylor's obituary notice -- The Times 2/9/1912

    More informations and more pictures here
  4. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    Re: Attack Response

    Nobledruali is probably the most good natured and friendliest member on this board, and I don't see how him disagreeing with you is tantamount to "picking on you" or "treating you as an enemy". I would appreciate it if we could continue with this thread without drama.
  5. jeverage

    jeverage New Member



    That is the whole point.

    He does not express what it is he exactly disagrees with. He continues to make sarcastic remarks without offering anything substantial in place of his remarks. I know when a person is being disrespectful to me. He is friendly to you and others, but not to me. As a matter of fact, if he was that good natured and friendly, he wouldn't even had tried to start any drama on the board in the first place with him disagreeing with me--on God knows what because he hasn't expressed it-- on a statement that had nothing in it that attacked what you were talking about. As a matter of fact, I was supporting you and glad that you started the subject. I find it offensive and disrespectful that you would accuse me of starting drama on the board by simply defending myself from crude and sly remarks. Thank you for attacking me when I have offered you support.


  6. nobledruali

    nobledruali Well-Known Member

    Re: Attack Response

    :shock: I am not YOUR ENEMY nor have I ever considered you some type of ENEMY. How could I seeing as how I don't even know you. But just like you have the right to post about certain subjects I also claim the right to respond in kind. However if you feel that you need to put me on "IGNORE" then that's fine too beccause I will STILL WISH YOU WELL :!:

  7. nobledruali

    nobledruali Well-Known Member

    Re: Attack Response

    Silver thanks for the support but just let it go because if anyone has noticed I stopped questioning jeverage concerning her post about "GHETTO BLACK CULTURE" because she thought I was being rude and/or smart so I left it alone but I have not made any rude remarks to her about anything at all. Anyone can check my posts to her on that one. The only time I get sort of FUNKY if you will is in the MEN'S LOCKER ROOM FORUM when we're discussing the fine ladies! :p

    It's probably best that I don't post to her at all but she can post to me all she wants! As a matter of fact, please check my post in the NEWS FORUM concerning the SLAVERY comments made in Virginia.

    Thanks and Peace!

    PS>Hey Silver the one you just posted on Samuel Coleridge-Taylor and his wife Jessie Sarah Fleetwood Walmisley may be the best one yet because those old pics are clear as a bell. Again thanks :!: :wink:
  8. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    Well, jeverage, first of, I didn't attack you nor did I accuse you of anything. I simply said that I would appreciate it if "WE" could continue with this thread without drama.

    Secondly, I just reread the "Ghetto black culture" thread because I thought I might have missed something, but even after reading it again I couldn't see where nobledruali was picking on you or was getting "smart" with you (what's wrong with being smart anyway?). He was simply disagreeing with your assertion that hiphop/rap is not part of the black culture and asked you to clarify what, in your opinion, the cultural roots of hiphop/rap are if not black culture. He articulated this question in his 3 or 4 posts to your thread very clearly and without any namecalling, picking or personal attacks, so I really don't see where all this heat is coming from.

    And last but not least, you are not going to make many friends on this board by reiterating the old myth that people in IR are driven by "their own issues of self hatred and dealing with their own feelings of intra-racism before they entered into an IR relationship" unless they sacrify their lives to "Black America". Especially if you fail to hold "Blacks who are married to each other who are not politcally and socially active" to the same standard. Period.

    I hope I was able to clarify some things and would appreciate it if we could get back on topic now. [​IMG]
  9. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    Re: Attack Response

    [​IMG] If you ask me, "well mannered sex" or "well mannered sex talk" is an oxymoron anyway! [​IMG]

    Yet this one was the easiest one since I found everything on one webpage (check out the link). :lol: It's not a problem to find biographies to copy, or pictures of the men, that's quickly done. But I'm often searching unsuccessfully for pictures of the women or their children, especially pictures of the older 18th/19th century couples are hard to find.

    Will do! [​IMG]
  10. nobledruali

    nobledruali Well-Known Member

    Thanks again Silver :!: :smt023
  11. Soulthinker

    Soulthinker Well-Known Member

    Many Thanks.
  12. jeverage

    jeverage New Member


    You have twisted my words to mean something totally opposite of what I have meant. I intend to enjoy this website in peace. I believe it would be best to let this go.


  13. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    Another one ... I couldn't find a picture of Josie, but at least I found their son and their grandson ... :)

    Frantz Fanon and his wife Marie-Josephe "Josie" Duble



    Frantz Fanon was the preeminent thinker of the 20th century on the issue of decolonization and the psychopathology of colonization. His works have inspired anti-colonial liberation movements for more than four decades and had profound influence on the radical movements in the 1960s in the United States and Europe.

    As a political thinker born in Martinique, Fanon's views gained audience in the Caribbean islands along with Aimé Césaire, Edouard Glissant, C.L.R. James, and Eric Williams. Fanon rejected the concept of Négritude - a term first used by Césaire - and stated that persons' status depends on their economical and social position. Fanon's two best-known works, Peau noire, masques blancs [Black Skin, White Masks] and Les damnés de la terre [The Wretched of the Earth] were adopted as works of reference in the 1960s by the Black Power movement and have now been accorded canonical status in universities. Scholars like Henry Louis Gates, bell hooks, and Stuart Hall have cited Fanon's work in their analysis of film, literature, and gender politics.

    Frantz Fanon grew up in Martinique amid descendants of African slaves, who had been brought to the Caribbean to work on the island's sugar plantations. In his teenage Fanon became politically active and participated in the guerrilla struggle against the supporters of the pro-Nazi French Vichy government. He served in the Free French forces and volunteered to go to Europe to fight.

    After the war he studied medicine and psychiatry in Paris and Lyons. Here he began writing political essays and plays.

    Simone de Beauvoir, J.P. Sartre und Che Guevara

    Perhaps the greatest influence on Fanon during this period was the publication of Jean-Paul Sartre's Being and Nothingness, which popularized existential philosophy and phenomenology. Sartre's work led Fanon to write his first book, Black Skins, White Masks (1952), an analysis of the "lived experience" of black people in a colonial society. Fanon would become friends with Sartre, who contributed the preface to The Wretched of the Earth . Fanon was known for his ability to engage in long discussions, so much so that Simone De Beauvior asked Fanon to give Sartre a rest after a 22 hour marathon conversation. Fanon replied, "I don't like people who spare themselves."

    Fanon, to many the epitome of the intellectual Black race man, married a Frenchwoman named Marie-Josephe "Josie" Duble in 1952, just as Black Skin, White Masks was published, and fathered a son. Duble, a young white Frenchwoman and journalist who shared his political commitment and intellectual passions, and as much a political firebrand as her husband, would struggle to keep his legacy alive in Africa for nearly 30 years after his death.

    Olivier Fanon, Frantz Fanon's son

    In 1954 the National Liberation Front (FLN) started its open warfare against French rule. After three years Fanon resigned and allied himself with the Algerian liberation movement that sought to throw off French rule. Fanon travelled guerrilla camps from Mali to Sahara, hid terrorists at his home and trained nurses to dress wounds. In 1959 he was severely wounded on the border of Algeria and Morocco.

    Fanon then worked briefly as an ambassador of the provisional Algerian government to Ghana and edited in Tunisia the magazine Moudjahid. During this period he also founded Africa's first psychiatric clinic. Much of his writing concentrated on the Algerian revolution, including the essays published in L'AN CINQ, DE LA RÉVOLUTION ALGÉRIENNE (1959), in which he calls for armed struggle against the French imperialism. Fanon himself did not live long enough to witness Algeria's independence.

    Fanon survived several political murder attempts, and also the slaughter in 1957, in which the F.L.N. killed 300 suspected supporters of a rival rebel group. After a 1,200-mile intelligence expedition in 1960, from Mali to the Algerian, he was diagnosed with leukemia.


    He went to the Soviet Union for treatment and experienced some remission of his illness. On his return to Tunis he dictated his testament The Wretched of the Earth. When he was not confined to his bed, he delivered lectures to ALN (Armée de Libération Nationale) officers at Ghardimao on the Algero-Tunisian border. He made a final visit to Sartre in Rome and went for further leukemia treatment in the USA. Finally Fanon was taken of leukemia and died in Washington, DC, on December 12, 1961, with his wife and son at his side. He was 36. His body was flown back to Algeria to be buried on Algerian soil. Later his body was moved to a martyrs (chouhada) graveyard at Ain Kerma in eastern Algeria.

    Olivier Fanon with his son

    Fanon was survived by his wife, Josie, their son, Olivier and his daughter (from a previous relationship) Mireille. Mireille maried Bernard Mendès-France, son of the French politician Pierre Mendès-France.

    Josie Fanon, Frantz's wife, committed suicide in Algiers in 1989, when the FLN became murderously oppressive. From the balcony of her flat in the El Biar district, Josie Fanon watched the youths of Algiers setting police vehicles on fire, and the troops opening fire on them. Speaking on the telephone to her friend Assia Djebar, she sighed: `Oh Frantz, the wretched of the earth again.'

    Frantz Fanon with his little son Olivier

    About his marriage:

    "We were asked: Why did you marry white French women? Well, what happend was, you met a women and you fell in love! You forgot she was a French woman."

    "Who I chose as the object of my desire is nobodies business -- I'm a free man."

    "I do not feel that I am abandoning my personality by marrying a European woman. If my children are looked down upon, if the crescents of their fingernails are examined, it will be simply because society will not have changed. For my part, I refuse to consider this issue from the standpoint of either/or."

    Watch the whole biography of Frantz Fanon here -- very interesting 50 min long and very nicely done
  14. OmahaBoy2003

    OmahaBoy2003 New Member

    Great thread and great stuff to learn about. I'm feeling Fanon.
  15. nobledruali

    nobledruali Well-Known Member

    Lovie & Mary Anne Smith
    Lovie Smith became the first African American to coach the Chicago Bears and then became the first African American to coach his team to the Super Bowl :!: :D

    He and his wife Mary Anne are very much involved in the Chicago community with projects concerning the city's youth[​IMG] as well as raising awareness of the health risks of diabetes just to name a few. Big congrats to Lovie & Mary Anne as well as the Bears organization.

    Also, can't forget the man that Lovie and the Bears will be facing in the Super Bowl to make it two African American coaches in the BIG DANCE :!: :p None other than Tony Dungy[​IMG] and the Colts. Tony Dungy has always been a class act and a great ROLE MODEL for African American men in my opinion! He carries himself with class & dignity all of the time and is a strong family man[​IMG] with Christian Values as well :!: Nowhere was his strength tested more than after the suicide of his oldest son. :( [​IMG]
    So congrats as well to Tony Dungy and the Colts. Looks like its going to be a great Super Bowl :!:
  16. OmahaBoy2003

    OmahaBoy2003 New Member

    The game is gonna be awesome!!!!
  17. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    I just saw them!!! [​IMG]

    I was zapping around and switched to the sports channel just when they showed them big in the middle of the screen, kissing and hugging eachother! And since I know absolutely nothing about football, I was wondering who they are! Now I know!!! Lovie & Mary Anne! Thanks a lot for the information! Love it!! [​IMG]
  18. LaydeezmanCris

    LaydeezmanCris New Member

    Much respect to Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy. Words cannot explain how feel about the accomplishments of the two of them. It can't get any better than seeing two brothers represent at th Super Bowl. I really want the Bears to win but would be just as happy if Indianapolis won. The mere sight of seeing a black coach win is enough for me.
  19. Soulthinker

    Soulthinker Well-Known Member

    True. I usually never watch the Super Bowl but I will watch this one. I'm just pleased if one of them won that would make my night.
  20. Silvercosma

    Silvercosma New Member

    This one is dedicated to you, Noble [​IMG] (trying to to clear off my debt to you!) [​IMG]

    The Titanic's only Black passenger

    Joseph Philippe Lemercier Laroche and his wife Juliette Marie Louise Lafargue


    Joseph Philippe Lemercier Laroche, who was born in Cap Haiten, Haiti, on May 26, 1889, came from a powerful family. Laroche's uncle, Dessalines M. Cincinnatus Leconte, was president of Haiti. The Laroches had been prosperous since the 17th century when a French captain named Laroche (in Haiti on military duty) married a young Haitian girl.

    At the age of 15, Laroche left Haiti to study engineering in Beauvais, France. Several years later, while visiting nearby Villejuif, he met Juliette Lafargue, the 22-year-old daughter of a local wine seller. Although impressed by the handsome young Laroche, Lafargue's father, a widower, did not allow Laroche to marry his daughter until 1908, after he received his engineering degree.

    A long way from his privileged lifestyle of Haiti, Laroche found France to be bleak and oppressive. Although Laroche was a cultured gentleman who spoke English and French fluently, and had an engineering degree, he couldn't find a job because of his color. It was a great disappointment to him that having earned his engineering degree in France he could not find employment there. No matter how qualified he was, the blackness of his skin kept him from securing a position that paid his worth.

    Laroche's family was growing and there were no opportunities for him to support them. The couple's first daughter, Simonne, was born a year into the marriage, and their second daughter, Louise, was prematurely the following year and was sickly. They were living in Lafargue's home, and the mounting medical bills for baby Louise were draining the wine seller's profits.

    Laroche, a proud and hardworking man, grew tired of having to rely on his father-in-law's generosity and decided to return to Haiti, where he would be guaranteed work in engineering. The family's plan to travel to Haiti was hastened, however, by the news that Juliette Laroche was pregnant once again.

    Laroche's mother was so overwhelmed that her son was coming home with his new family that she purchased tickets on the French liner La France as a homecoming gift. When the couple realized that their children would not be permitted to dine with them on the liner, they exchanged their La France tickets for second-class reservations on the Titanic.

    The Laroche family boarded the "palace of the sea" on Wednesday, April 10, 1912, at Cherbourg, France, for the scheduled five-day crossing to New York.

    The Laroches did not have first-class reservations, but Laroche made it quite clear that his family was second-class to no one. The couple shared many of the spoils enjoyed by the first-class passengers. Their lounge was a large, spacious room with paneling in sycamore and was comparable to first-class accommodations on other sea liners of the day. Laroche, like other second-class passengers, also dined in the same saloon as the first-class passengers. Yet, the family's second-class tickets did not shield them from the stares and insults of being the only multiracial family in a sea of upscale Whiteness, and it is almost certain that the Laroches were frowned upon because of Laroche's Black skin and his interracial marriage to Juliette.


    According to a few survivor reports, the Laroches were a handsome couple who conversed freely with some of the other passengers. But their charm did not eliminate the racism that was rampant aboard the ship, especially among the crew members. The White Star Line, the company that owned the Titanic, was forced later to issue a public apology for the derogatory statements made by the crew during the final moments on the doomed ship.

    The days passed, bringing the Laroches and their fellow passengers to the unspeakable horror of Sunday, April 14, 1912, the day of the most tragic event in maritime history. Just before midnight, the Titanic, traveling at approximately 30 miles per hour, the highest speed it had ever achieved, hit a mammoth iceberg, causing five of the watertight compartments to flood.

    Chaos erupted. Realizing that the liner could remain afloat for less than two hours, Captain Smith ordered the 16 lifeboats and four collapsible boats ready, and shortly afterward, women and children began boarding the lifeboats. Of course, the definition of "women and children" varied, as the evacuation process was unofficially labeled a survival of the richest. "In the popular imagination," historians Zero Z. Batzell Dean and Eric Klocko wrote in Children on the Titanic: Tragedy & Class, "men gallantly refrained from entering the limited number of lifeboats in order to allow the women and children to escape. Nevertheless, one had a better chance of surviving as a first-class man than as a third-class child."

    Historians agree that Laroche was calm and heroic. Despite the pandemonium around him, he managed somehow to load his wife and daughters, possibly into lifeboat No. 14, which launched the port side at around 1:00 a.m. Laroche probably consoled his wife with frantic kisses and sweet promises of catching the next boat and reuniting with her later--but they both knew they would never see each other again.

    The last lifeboat left at 2:05 a.m. Seconds before the liner went under, a number of third-class passengers, many of them women and children, surged from below deck. At 2:17, the ship's bow plunged under, the lights blinked and went out. From her lifeboat, Juliette Laroche watched in horror as the stern turned sharply upward, pointing to the sky, and finally sank to the bottom of the ocean, taking Joseph Phillippe Lemercier Laroche and some 1,500 other people to a watery grave.

    What did Joseph Laroche do during his final moments? Did he curse his fate, or did he stand with the other doomed passengers and listen to the Edison Concert Band play "Nearer My God To Thee?" No one knows for sure, but given his courage, it is likely that he made peace with his ending and died with courage and valor. Almost half of the bodies of the victims were later recovered, but the body of Joseph Laroche was never found.

    Juliette Laroche and her children remained in the frigid lifeboat for hours, without food. Finally, six hours later, the rescue boat Carpathia rescued the 705 Titanic survivors and delivered them to safety in New York, where she and her children received medical attention at St. Vincent's Hospital .

    Poor and pregnant, Juliette Laroche decided to return to France to live with her father. A week before Christmas 1912, Joseph Lemercier Laroche Jr. entered the world, bearing a striking resemblance to his handsome father. This child brought much joy to his grandfather Lafargue, but the war erupting in Europe ruined the winery and thrust the entire family into poverty. On the advice of her father, Juliette Laroche sued the White Star Line for damages, but she filed her case too late. Lawyers came and went, no settlement arrived and Juliette Laroche, with her three children, lived in poverty through the first World War.

    In 1918, six years after the death of her husband, the White Star Line awarded Juliette Laroche 150,000 francs, about $22,119 in 1918 and approximately $254,374 today. She took her settlement and opened a fabric-dyeing business in a room of the family's small home. Although she was now able to support her family, the Titanic tragedy scarred Juliette Laroche for life. Her love for her lost husband never waned, and she never remarried.

    Louise Laroche was the last French Titanic lady. She passed away less than two years after this picture was taken. She died in Paris on 28 January 1998.

    read more here

Share This Page