**Tisk Tisk** NCIS Los Angeles

I missed this ep., but have been watching the show religiously since it began. After everything I've written about race in Hollywood from years of research and watching, this is not shock at all. Truth is, his character seemed to have to be worked into every episode he was in. He was like one of those characters on a show where he's good, but they don't know quite what to do with him.

But remember this. We are still in tough economic times and the show just took off. Studios seem to favor cutting out the waste in shows early on that they feel may hold back a potential hit and money maker for them (see "Grey's Anatomy"). So don't be too surprised that this was probably in the works from the beginning. He may come back later sometime where his character's better than ever. Though as usual, this doesn't seem to bode well for the average black actor/actress looking for meaningful work in that town these days. I'm sure they all would take what appearances they could get.
 
I saw the ep where he went missing. I didn't take it as racial but as a mystery that will play out thru the season. They got rid of Claire on "Lost" for a whole season, but since she's white no problem, right? Would like to know the real reason they wrote him out though. Was it a money thing or truly story-driven?
 
karmacoma. said:
I saw the ep where he went missing. I didn't take it as racial but as a mystery that will play out thru the season. They got rid of Claire on "Lost" for a whole season, but since she's white no problem, right? Would like to know the real reason they wrote him out though. Was it a money thing or truly story-driven?
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Shows are generally written to be progressive towards the future and eventual end of a series, so yeah it wouldn't be made to seem racial at all. However, we've all had this argument back and forth about the relationship between black actors/actresses and white hollywood, and race DOES seem to factor into everything from casting to in-depth roles of the characters. That must not be dismissed.

And as for the Lost example, that show was one of my favorites when it first came on, complete with compelling characters and weekly personal backstories on how a particular main character arrived on the plane. From my vantage point, Claire's character seemed one of those who fit into my "don't quite know what to do with" section. They tried to fit her in to "missions" as I recall. She and Ian Somerhalder were brother and sister I think and they tried to build around that. They even had her eventually dating Naveen Andrews' character towards the end. To me, she was just a victim of an audience seemingly infatuated with her and the writing team not knowing what to do with her. But remember that they had the black dude on the show (Harold Parinneau) and they seemed to manufacture EVERY reason imaginable to hasten his departure. You gonna tell me THAT had nothing to do with race???

So again, I'm NOT a racist. I could really care less what color/race the actors are on TV shows, as long as the writing is strong and consistent. But let's not pretend that we live in an America where a large contingent of affiliated viewing areas around the country feel similar. They don't. "Thump's" quiet accusation about too many blacks on a show these days may still hold some water for some folks. Why else aren't there solid black-casted dramas on regular tv???:confused:
 
hellspawn72 said:
Shows are generally written to be progressive towards the future and eventual end of a series, so yeah it wouldn't be made to seem racial at all. However, we've all had this argument back and forth about the relationship between black actors/actresses and white hollywood, and race DOES seem to factor into everything from casting to in-depth roles of the characters. That must not be dismissed.

And as for the Lost example, that show was one of my favorites when it first came on, complete with compelling characters and weekly personal backstories on how a particular main character arrived on the plane. From my vantage point, Claire's character seemed one of those who fit into my "don't quite know what to do with" section. They tried to fit her in to "missions" as I recall. She and Ian Somerhalder were brother and sister I think and they tried to build around that. They even had her eventually dating Naveen Andrews' character towards the end. To me, she was just a victim of an audience seemingly infatuated with her and the writing team not knowing what to do with her. But remember that they had the black dude on the show (Harold Parinneau) and they seemed to manufacture EVERY reason imaginable to hasten his departure. You gonna tell me THAT had nothing to do with race???

So again, I'm NOT a racist. I could really care less what color/race the actors are on TV shows, as long as the writing is strong and consistent. But let's not pretend that we live in an America where a large contingent of affiliated viewing areas around the country feel similar. They don't. "Thump's" quiet accusation about too many blacks on a show these days may still hold some water for some folks. Why else aren't there solid black-casted dramas on regular tv???:confused:
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Well they brought him back, too, didn't they? Walt as well. They killed off Mr. Eko, but they killed Charlie, Boone and even Locke, too.

Black-cast dramas have never done well on networks, EVER. Cable seems to be the place, like "Soul Food" on Showtime. Chitlin circuit shit like those Tyler Perry sitcoms are through the roof, though. That might have more to do with the black audience itself than white folks. Black folks run screaming from anything that makes them think.

With Obama's victory last year, I told myself I wouldn't see race under every rock. Race is where you find it. I don't think the NCIS thing is racial. Call me if they kill off LL's character, then I'll be with you.
 
PS: Now if you want to talk racial, how they did Isaiah Washington was flat-out racist. They threw the black man under the bus with the quickness and it turned out T.R. Knight left the show anyway. I quit watching after that went down.
 
karmacoma. said:
PS: Now if you want to talk racial, how they did Isaiah Washington was flat-out racist. They threw the black man under the bus with the quickness and it turned out T.R. Knight left the show anyway. I quit watching after that went down.
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wasn't he making the 'workplace' uncomfortable, by attacking TR Knight over his homosexuality? If he was chucked because of that, he's not exactly an innocent party. If the two situations are unrelated, then there may be something to look at.
 
It's 2010. You can't just go calling people faggot in press conferences and think you're going back to work on soap opera predominately watched by women. We vagina-owners tend to like the gays. Isiah Washington got away with it the first time, off the record, then did it again on the record for the press. That shit's stupid. Fuck him.

As for "Black shows never do well on networks" -- crazy talk. Know of an Asian show that's done as well as the Cosby Show? How about an Arab show that's done better than Different World.

White shows do well because advertisers like targeting White people. Ratings mean very little in raw numbers, it's about the demographic. This is why interracial casts are still rare on tv -- because advertisers prefer to sell to White people or Black people, but not both. So you'll have predominately White casts with one or two Black characters, or predominately Black casts with one or two White characters, but rarely a multicultural cast.

This has changed a little since the 90's, specifically because of the old line up of Family Matters and Boy Meets World. They found that Black people would stay tuned in for Boy Meets World, and vice versa, and some advertisers took the opportunity to market to both groups at once.

But that's still rare. It's getting better, but it's still rare.

Hollywood is absolutely racist. So is tv. Not necessarily because any of the people involved in the show are racist, but because underestimating the audience is the standard formula, and advertisers traditionally assume White people will shoot their television sets if they see too many Black people.
 
chicity said:
It's 2010. You can't just go calling people faggot in press conferences and think you're going back to work on soap opera predominately watched by women. We vagina-owners tend to like the gays. Isiah Washington got away with it the first time, off the record, then did it again on the record for the press. That shit's stupid. Fuck him.

As for "Black shows never do well on networks" -- crazy talk. Know of an Asian show that's done as well as the Cosby Show? How about an Arab show that's done better than Different World.

White shows do well because advertisers like targeting White people. Ratings mean very little in raw numbers, it's about the demographic. This is why interracial casts are still rare on tv -- because advertisers prefer to sell to White people or Black people, but not both. So you'll have predominately White casts with one or two Black characters, or predominately Black casts with one or two White characters, but rarely a multicultural cast.

This has changed a little since the 90's, specifically because of the old line up of Family Matters and Boy Meets World. They found that Black people would stay tuned in for Boy Meets World, and vice versa, and some advertisers took the opportunity to market to both groups at once.

But that's still rare. It's getting better, but it's still rare.

Hollywood is absolutely racist. So is tv. Not necessarily because any of the people involved in the show are racist, but because underestimating the audience is the standard formula, and advertisers traditionally assume White people will shoot their television sets if they see too many Black people.
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The man specifically said black dramas, as opposed to sitcoms, like Cosby.
 
karmacoma. said:
PS: Now if you want to talk racial, how they did Isaiah Washington was flat-out racist. They threw the black man under the bus with the quickness and it turned out T.R. Knight left the show anyway. I quit watching after that went down.
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I'm with you there. Since they got rid of him, I no longer cared. Rumor has it that Isaiah tried out for the "Mc Dreamy" role, but didn't get it, so he was bitter about it.
 
karmacoma. said:
Black-cast dramas have never done well on networks, EVER. Cable seems to be the place, like "Soul Food" on Showtime. Chitlin circuit shit like those Tyler Perry sitcoms are through the roof, though. That might have more to do with the black audience itself than white folks. Black folks run screaming from anything that makes them think.
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You know us black folk love to laugh and evidentially, can't do anything else. If it's not comedy, we won't watch it!
 
Where are all these Black-cast dramas on networks that no one is watching? I can't remember any in my lifetime. I don't remember any ever getting a chance to fail.
 
chicity said:
Where are all these Black-cast dramas on networks that no one is watching? I can't remember any in my lifetime. I don't remember any ever getting a chance to fail.
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Google "Kevin Hill", "Daybreak". Both starred Taye Diggs and were good shows (or had potential to be good shows).
 
chicity said:
Where are all these Black-cast dramas on networks that no one is watching? I can't remember any in my lifetime. I don't remember any ever getting a chance to fail.
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In the late 70s-early 80s there was a family show where James Earl Jones was the patriarch. Failed. Then he had a cop show where he was the main guy, also failed. Both were dramas. And this was back in the days of only three networks.
 
chicity said:
It's 2010. You can't just go calling people faggot in press conferences and think you're going back to work on soap opera predominately watched by women. We vagina-owners tend to like the gays. Isiah Washington got away with it the first time, off the record, then did it again on the record for the press. That shit's stupid. Fuck him.

As for "Black shows never do well on networks" -- crazy talk. Know of an Asian show that's done as well as the Cosby Show? How about an Arab show that's done better than Different World.
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Hold up. Not so crazy. What studios have put out ANY real Asian or Arab-themed shows for us to ever compare??? Oh sure, there was that Margret Cho comedy on a few years back, but it lasted what - 2 episodes??? No real time for an audience to neither examine it nor to develop. In fact, I was reading someplace that there's an independent watch group which examines yearly the progress made by Hollywood on minority programming and hiring and guess what... Yeah, another poor set of grades for few blacks and latinos in tv and cinema and virtually no asian, native american or other representation AT ALL. And as for the beloved Cosby Show, yeah I watched religiously in the '80s before it got the coveted #1 slot and remember that that show was "developed" for american tv and Bill Cosby and a slew of white writers and producers. It was made paletable for a largely white audience.

White shows do well because advertisers like targeting White people. Ratings mean very little in raw numbers, it's about the demographic. This is why interracial casts are still rare on tv -- because advertisers prefer to sell to White people or Black people, but not both. So you'll have predominately White casts with one or two Black characters, or predominately Black casts with one or two White characters, but rarely a multicultural cast.

This has changed a little since the 90's, specifically because of the old line up of Family Matters and Boy Meets World. They found that Black people would stay tuned in for Boy Meets World, and vice versa, and some advertisers took the opportunity to market to both groups at once.

But that's still rare. It's getting better, but it's still rare.
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I can agree partially. Shows operate on advertising dollars and studios know this. And they are keenly aware (or should be by now) of the affiliated areas across the country where they can pump those dollars into based upon the theme of a show AND it's cast. Now I can't get into a statistical argument about ratings versus demographic because demographics can be complex across the country ranging from everything involving age, gender, specific residence etc.. So your suggestion about interracial casting being rare holds some water. But again, those same demographics MUST lend weight to race/ethnicity and our perception of such because it goes directly to how those specific people feel about their neighbors in their community, the people who they work with and well as other colors of folk around the country. Again, race DOES MATTER at some level.

And if your presumption that advertisers are more willing to sell to white audience has any merit, then it will truly take quite some time for white audiences to come around to larger black and minority audiences as well as the IR relationships. Times have changed little since the '90s, but its a catch-22. If blacks are watching these old lineups and that's what advertisers are pumping money into, then how do blacks demand better, newer lineups when advertisers are still with the old? And how do advertisers look to finance newer projects when black audiences still cling to the old?? Let's hope you're right about things getting better.



Hollywood is absolutely racist. So is tv. Not necessarily because any of the people involved in the show are racist, but because underestimating the audience is the standard formula, and advertisers traditionally assume White people will shoot their television sets if they see too many Black people.
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Yeah, I've softened my stance on Hollywood quite a bit over the last few years. The industry itself isn't necessarily racist, but it too easily panders to a specific formula for how show and movie casts are presented on screen. Presentations which are inherently ignorant representations of various races and cultures across the board.
 
hellspawn72 said:
Hold up. Not so crazy. What studios have put out ANY real Asian or Arab-themed shows for us to ever compare??? Oh sure, there was that Margret Cho comedy on a few years back, but it lasted what - 2 episodes??? No real time for an audience to neither examine it nor to develop. In fact, I was reading someplace that there's an independent watch group which examines yearly the progress made by Hollywood on minority programming and hiring and guess what... Yeah, another poor set of grades for few blacks and latinos in tv and cinema and virtually no asian, native american or other representation AT ALL.
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My point being that it's not like only Black-casted shows have trouble on networks. There is clearly an impulse to keep network tv predominately White, and that's not something that ought to be blamed on Black people, given how equally that problem is shared amongst non-white groups.

hellspawn72 said:
And as for the beloved Cosby Show, yeah I watched religiously in the '80s before it got the coveted #1 slot and remember that that show was "developed" for american tv and Bill Cosby and a slew of white writers and producers. It was made paletable for a largely white audience.
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You could make that argument, but Different World did exactly the opposite -- started out White-friendly, then retooled to be more realistic. It did far better when it stopped trying to cater to White people. The point being that, when given the opportunity, Black tv shows can indeed flourish without even selling out.

hellspawn72 said:
I can agree partially. Shows operate on advertising dollars and studios know this. And they are keenly aware (or should be by now) of the affiliated areas across the country where they can pump those dollars into based upon the theme of a show AND it's cast. Now I can't get into a statistical argument about ratings versus demographic because demographics can be complex across the country ranging from everything involving age, gender, specific residence etc.. So your suggestion about interracial casting being rare holds some water. But again, those same demographics MUST lend weight to race/ethnicity and our perception of such because it goes directly to how those specific people feel about their neighbors in their community, the people who they work with and well as other colors of folk around the country. Again, race DOES MATTER at some level.
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Absolutely. However, I think that producers regularly underestimate people, and that if the average viewing audience was given more options for shows with Black casts, they'd do better than the producers & advertisers assume.

That said, we live in a society where study after study shows that our level of prejudice is directly affected by the images presented in the entertainment we consume. So it becomes a cycle.

hellspawn72 said:
And if your presumption that advertisers are more willing to sell to white audience has any merit, then it will truly take quite some time for white audiences to come around to larger black and minority audiences as well as the IR relationships. Times have changed little since the '90s, but its a catch-22. If blacks are watching these old lineups and that's what advertisers are pumping money into, then how do blacks demand better, newer lineups when advertisers are still with the old? And how do advertisers look to finance newer projects when black audiences still cling to the old?? Let's hope you're right about things getting better.
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Young people will always drive progress. Add to that the internet, which is changing all traditional forms of advertising in dramatic new ways. And, not to go to the cliche, but Obama's changed many things. White people across the country got a little infatuated with Black men during the last couple years. Think I'm wrong? Check out the difference in casting both in shows & commercials, between last year and 3 years ago. Look at Fast Forward, which is not as good as I'd hoped, but has multiple Black male leads and an Asian male lead. Better Off Ted featured a highly sexual interracial relationship between a White Woman lawyer & a Black Male scientist for an episode without anyone mentioning race. Another had a blonde & Taye Diggs. The writing of both episodes took it as a given that race would not be a consideration in dating. I remember talking on the internet with interracial couples back in 1999, and we wondered if exactly such a thing would ever be possible. So I do believe things are getting better.



hellspawn72 said:
Yeah, I've softened my stance on Hollywood quite a bit over the last few years. The industry itself isn't necessarily racist, but it too easily panders to a specific formula for how show and movie casts are presented on screen. Presentations which are inherently ignorant representations of various races and cultures across the board.
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To be clear: I adamantly support the fight against such presentations, and for greater casting of Black Men, and for better and more frequent presentations of interracial couples. I take it pretty seriously, and I've appreciated reading the thoughts you've posted on the subject.
 
Oh Yeah, there was The Cosby Mysteries, which was his first post-Cosby Show series. It played kinda like Murder She Wrote with a bit of humor. However, Cosby played it without the comedic mugging. That only lasted a few episodes.
 
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