Why is everyone so scared...

Your petty little critique is based upon anecdotes rather than evidence of systematic corrosion. Furthermore, you have done nothing to negate the soundness of any of those programs. Social security may or may not be running out of funds in the future, which tells us dick about whether or not it has worked for seniors in the past or present.

Your construction worker who drew unemployment got over on the system. So what? It does not render unemployment insurance broken or even flawed, just that some people abuse it. Name one program or institution in which people don't abuse their privileges? Throwing out singular examples raises no inductive value about how we should assess these programs.

 

Well, since you believe in government so much, why don't you tell me how much they've worked? Do you have any evidence that these programs that you cherish have done anything to tackle the problems? They're not successful because you say they are

Yes. People abuse the system and get attempt to get over on it. That is true. Now let's turn it around. If it were a CEO or hedge fund manager who was using a tax shelter, would you be so quick to defend them? I highly doubt you would. I'm sure you would want the CEOs locked up and the key thrown away and the tax shelters ended.

One can look at how much money is spent on the programs to see what they've done to alleviate the problems. One can also look at the number of individuals who use the programs every year. If these programs are doing what you believe they're doing, there should be less and less people who use the programs, and the costs should be going down

So let me see your evidence. I want to look at it myself. I'm sure you some, right?:roll:

 

Where did I say Black Men are not able to make $250,000 or more when there are clearly some at the annual Black Enterprise Forum they have every year, when there are clearly Black Men with MBA's and Medical degrees and the like.

C'mon dawg I never said anything even CLOSE to that. I know many people make $250,000 or more. As I said they aren't complaining per say. The media doesn't educate them, on top of constantly voting against your own interest for the sake of towing the party line kind of nonsense.

IE: Most small business owners and successful people are Republican....

As for the Troops, the point I have been trying to make is this -

Since WW2 we have fought 5 largely unpopular wars, that's including Kosovo, which many wouldn't call a War. If your Black in an area hard hit by unemployment (Flint, Mich) what are your options???? The local mall has closed (see:Micheal Moore film "Roger & Me) and no other real chances to work for a decent living. Add to that you have gotten into trouble, the court issues you two options - Join the military or go to jail, which would you pick?

This goes on all over the inner city and in rural areas all over America. I guess you haven't seen any of the shenagians Armed Forces Recruiters have pulled since the start of war and now Occupation.

Now if you have joined on your own free accord, that's great, that's fine and good for you. However if the United States wants to maintain its "War Mongering" ways you don't belong in it, no matter what your personal situtation is.

This all goes back to the limited opportunities mainly for poor White, Brown and Black people forcing them into the Military unless you want to work for basically slave wages at Wal-Mart, who by the way is anti-Union.

Shy -

What are you trying to say anyway???

 

Dex is this based on fact or opinion????

Why is employment high in German or Spain?

I don't remember, I have seen a couple of programs about it. But its not because they don't have an educated population.

I just didn't want to put up all the Scandinavian countries which ALL have low employment, no homeless, no "skid row", no "bad" sections of town. Excellent public transportation and stable mixed economies.

They are modern Socially Democratic countries. You can still work hard, get a high education and make alot of money. Yes you get taxed hard, but FYI before 1973 the Rich got taxed fairly good and from WW2 to 1973 we had double digit growth of the middle-class including Black Americans joining that class with factory jobs and working for local, county and state government offices.

I know because my parents, my aunts and uncles were all apart of that early 70's growth.

What's happen is that starting with Nixon, the Neo Conservatives have been trying to undo the New Deal and the Square Deal. Clinton to his credit added more jobs in his two terms but he also let Greenspan create the Dot.com bubble and Greenspan has been discredited.

I highly recommend you read this report -

http://www.stonybrook.edu/workingclass/resources/distress_full.pdf

 

...and that's where the jobs are created. When you tax them more, it results in fewer jobs, higher prices, etc. Any prudent businessman will include the cost of production in the price of the product.

 

Higher taxes won't mean much when theres a National Health Care system... Taking you off the hook as a business owner to provide health care to your employees which has been the single most costly thing to a small business owner.

Plus Obama has said he would extend tax credits to small businesses anyway, you saw big time growth in SBA loans and such under Clinton. Neo Cons use Small Businesses with tax scare tactics like they use the Religious Right to scare with "The Gay" and Abortion issues.

Small Business is better under Democratic rule than Republicans. That's because you haven't had a good Republican run for office since FDR....

And lastly, how many small business owners turn a $250,000 personal profit. I don't have the numbers in front of me but its around 23%, not that many because your net worth would be closer to 1 Million dollars and umm you can afford any tax increase if that's the case. Green Jobs will create more new jobs than any existing small businesses anyway.

I don't hear many people in Denmark complaining about the taxes they have to pay. If they don't like it alot, they are a well educated and high salaried country, they move to the States....

 

Ahhh, you have stumbled into agreement with me. My co-worker is from Denmark and he complains all the time. He also thinks the American system is better because it offers choice, and the freedom to succeed or fail.

He is considering a move, and I have a theory: freedom-loving european people dominated the early migration to the US.

 

You make a lot of since. I wish I were able to articulate it as well as you do.

Why is it that you don't get the flack? Is it because you are a fellow bm and I am a ww? Do people on this forum just think ww don't have brains? Or is it trully, and I know I can do this, do I say it all wrong?

 

Yes, yes, I agree with all you are saying Sir Nose.

My point is though, what about the hard working underclass? People who just aren't smart enough for higher education, who just don't have it.

In fact, if everybody had education, and money, the free market and capitalist dream just would not work.. well, no system is perfect, but agreed it's the best we have found..

Capitalism works on an unequal distribution of wealth- that's the point. You just need to graduate that distribution to prevent the societal problems you can have otherwise. That's the catch. (see South Africa, massive inequality, for example, US, it's fairly extreme also). You need to catch those that fall out of the net at the bottom.



I previously worked for our Australian welfare system, widely regarded as being very good.

I saw people working 50-60-70 hours a week for minimum wage. Not because they didn't work hard. What happens to them? They still just might not have enough to afford proper insurance and quality of life.

I was raised with a mentality as above, but what I learnt in that role was that being hard working, and being well off or even comfortable, don't necessarily go hand in hand. Factory workers, for example.

There is a lie that is fed. That lie says, helping people equates to removing choice. It doesn't. IT says that it equates to very high taxes. It doesn't.
And it is not FREAKING COMMUNISM!!! Sorry, but this really gets my goat..

I re iterate my example. In Australia, we pay just 2% towards Medicare if we are over a certain income. We all have the choice of public health care.

Those who can afford it, buy private insurance. They do pay a levy if they are on a high income for NOT having insurance, but they can still choose any provider, or whether to take it out or not, etc. They could still use public health, if they wanted to.

It is the same choice as America- in fact, its more, because people aren't forced to take our insurance they can ill afford.

 

I saw those tents.. and I just thought.. what the fuck.

It reminded me of travelling through migrant camps in Africa. Honestly.

It's not right. These people were not just what we call the 'bludger'- people who have chosen to 'opt out', to be lazy. These were hard working people. The system failed them.

 

Actually it was slaves who arrived before the great European migrations, slaves who gave America the unimaginable wealth it has by virtue of centuries of free labor.

 

John McCain doesn't give a shit about small business owners because most small business owners aren't pulling in more than $250K per year. The ones that are aren't really small business, "mom and pop" operations anyway.

His concern is with keeping taxes low on his friends...including his wealthy wife. If you look at people making $100,000 per year and less, Obama will cut their taxes more than McCain. If you look at people making between $100,001 up to $249,999...McCain and Obama will tax them at the same rate. Joe Wurzelbacher (aka Joe the Plumber) is an idiot for allowing the GOP to pimp him out like a 2 dollar hooker in South Dallas. He even said it himself that Obama's plan would help him more. Ah those "conservatives" (most people that are "conservatives" today would make real conservatives turn over and vomit)..voting against their own interest..and not being able to explain why.

We redistribute wealth all of the time...it's not new. If we didn't have taxes, our nation would be like Mexico. People down there aren't fond of paying taxes either...and no one ever wants to escape Mexico and go to another country, right?

Sarah Palin knows about redistribution and "socialism" when she was able to get checks from the oil companies in Alaska and disburse them to the citizens of the state. Sounds like she's a communist to me...and when you consider the fact that she cites being able to "see Russia from my home" as experience...you start to wonder if her, Vladmir Putin and Dmitri Medvedev did more than just stare at each other.

 

Phew, some reasoning.

 

This doesn't make much sense. We all have the freedom to succeed or fail.

Except, in America, if there is no safety net failure is kindov like capital punishment- you don't get another chance.

Failure should be a learning experience, I'm sure you agree with that. Sometimes we need help picking up the pieces.

 

I´m repeating what my buddy the Dane said to me. That´s the way he feels after growing up in Denmark for 45 years. An, example, he has considered moving out of Europe, but he would lose most of his benefits that he has been taxed 40% of his salary for, for years. University study for his kids is paid through the same excessive taxes (whether they attend or not), but if one of his kids decides to go to college outside of the EU, he is shit out of luck.

 

Agreed Denmark has the highest (I think, or amongst the highest?) taxes in the world. We have picked an extreme example.

It is possible to strike a balance in the middle of the scale.. I hate to talk about Australia again.. ahemm..

For example, we have a system where University students don't need to pay fees up front when they are studying, if they don't want to.

When they start to earn an income (it's about 38K US I guess, very roughly), then the fees are paid back through tax.

Alot of people complain about it, because education at the higher level used to be free for all, and the system was introduced by politicians who had the benefit of this free education.

However, it is a reasonable system. Agreed that the US has amongst some of the best and well respected colleges in the world, however I feel this is more because of long histories and a tradition of philanthropy that have generated large benevolent funds that go to some of the best colleges.

I spoke with some staff at SoCal from various colleges in the US, and the donations were at a scale we just don't see here.

 

I disagree that Denmark is an extreme example, it is one of the EU countries that is held up as a standard by American liberals who want socialized health. Canada, the UK and Germany also have stifiling tax rates.

Not trying to be harsh but the fact that you thought higher education was ever "free" is an example of how socialism gives people false ideas. I am sure a lot of people also think that socialized medical care would be "free".

 

To-date there has not been a right-wing congressperson or senator who has pledged to give up THEIR government health care. Such hypocrisy know no grounds.

 

In the US health care is usually or at least often provided by the employer. For this reason, those who have good job skills tend to choose employers who have good health plans. Most Fortune 500 companies offer great health and dental packages so that they can attract and keep quality workers and managers. I imagine this is also the reason some people run for office or stay in office.

 

Don't be concerned. My most recent role is writing technical policy documents for the Australian government. So I hear much dirtier language and barbs on a daily basis.

Obviously, I understand the difference between actually being free and being paid for through taxable contributions, etc etc. I just thought that the short hand would be appreciated, since you are clearly very knowledgeable on the issue.

There is a very clear, and distinct, difference between an INCLUSIVE policy and a SOCIALIST policy. By definition, they are different.

Also, even if I agreed we were talking about socialism, socialism is an idea in itself, a theory- so on its own, it cannot 'give' people false ideas. It is the interpretation of ideas, whatever the are, that generates new ideas... etc etc... well, that's a fun philosophical path we could go down, but really shouldn't I guess.

My parents and their families came as refugees to Australia from a war and a government that wanted to kill them for their right to vote, and speak out, against corruption.

They worked hard, they were intelligent.

Thank fuck for the 'free' education that has allowed them to translate their professional qualifications, to get Masters degrees, to see their children and nieces and nephews gain Bachelor degrees, Master's and Doctoral qualifications.

Of course, they worked damned hard. But without that little help, our family may not have grown to be what I view as productive members of society.

Sir nose, I don't want to get personal, I love a good robust discussion. I just thought, I would use a personal example when it became apparent you seriously thought I didn't understand the distinction and wanted to use it to support your argument.

I'm out on this topic.

It's important to have argument and discussion about these issues though- because that's how all issues are addressed. It's like polishing a diamond- by putting force on something from two sides, you achieve a better result. Important part is though- don't just think, act. If you feel strongly, get involved, and I hope you are.

Peace out.

and I am a little fractious today.. It's policy on the run. In this crisis, we have gone from a good budget surplus.. and have now wiped off..oh about 40 billion from it.