Sexual Harassment/Assault Scandals

[Thump]

Ahhh ok...oh my God...I can imagine very well!

Lol, it wasn't quite as stomach turning as you think. There was KY-jelly slime, stains, and odors every once and awhile, but the really gross stuff was all the graphic "What To Look For" and "Signs Of Infection" posters in every exam room.

 

[Gorath]

Lol...that doctor...
I actually meant if that Latina nurse was a Latino nurse (male) removing the cover from a female patient and looking...it would be considered outrageous. But the other way round it's supposed to be cute or something.

LOL

 

[Madeleine]

Lol, it wasn't quite as stomach turning as you think. There was KY-jelly slime, stains, and odors every once and awhile, but the really gross stuff was all the graphic "What To Look For" and "Signs Of Infection" posters in every exam room.

Yeah cleaning up after a birth would certainly be worse than what happens at those clinics.
Also depends how much info you are willing to have. There are some men who just want to remain under the illusion that women are all sugar coated marshmallow from head to toe so even a speculum with a little blood can traumatize them. Talkless of a puddle of blood from an impending miscarriage or so...
Those posters...I can imagine...like I said I find gynae books very off-putting. Nothing sexy about it whatsoever.

 

[darkcurry]

Yeah I knew this "asking to be raped issue" was bound to come up. That's why I specifically said that of course regardless of what she is wearing a man has no right to take anything that wasn't offered to him in clear terms. Of course mini skirt can't be a justification for rape. Typical Muslim/Arab thinking that the woman is responsible for getting raped cos she wasn't wearing the right thing and even if she wears a burqa, still her fault because she was outside without her "male guardian", as they call it. I don't think we want that type of thinking.

Absolutely! Men and anyone else that think like that needs professional help and shouldn't be around people for awhile. Looking at woman that is dressed sexy is another story and is also the way the man is looking at her. Nothing wrong with admiration. This society is so immature and ignorant sexually, more so men. But it has to do with the way we have treated nudity, sex and sexuality. Especially in this country. Violence is more acceptable on TV than nudity. I seen PG rated movies that had fight scenes in them. Humanity has totally fucked the nature of our own species. And it's all shallow, superficial. Underneath our skin is nothing but blood and muscle tissue. Not very attractive.

 

[Beasty]

Yeah cleaning up after a birth would certainly be worse than what happens at those clinics.
Also depends how much info you are willing to have. There are some men who just want to remain under the illusion that women are all sugar coated marshmallow from head to toe so even a speculum with a little blood can traumatize them. Talkless of a puddle of blood from an impending miscarriage or so...
Those posters...I can imagine...like I said I find gynae books very off-putting. Nothing sexy about it whatsoever.

"What does a pizza delivery driver and a gynecologist have in common"

"Both can smell it but can't eat it"

Lmao

 

[Madeleine]

"What does a pizza delivery driver and a gynecologist have in common"

"Both can smell it but can't eat it"

Lmao

That's right, he better eat at home.

 

[Bliss]

Man are more visual than women that's why they have always made sure they had places to go where they'd satisfy that interest. However there used to be a stark contrast between women who worked in such establishments and the rest of womankind. Nowadays dressing like a stripper/half-naked/extremely provocative or sexualized is being presented as the thing to do even in mainstream society. In my grandmas time if you run around half-naked you will never find a husband. It wasn't encouraged at all.
And honestly, I think we can also choose as women how we want to present ourselves and what message we send to men. I think a lot of those 16 y/o girls who walk around in hotpants and crop top don't get that yet. I'm not saying men have the right to touch what they were not invited to touch just because a woman wears a miniskirt, of course not. I just think that we shouldn't play ignorant. If our dress is very sexy, revealing, sexualised...that's the response we get from men. If we dress ladylike, we get that response from men. There are some idiots who don't get the message but overall it works pretty well. I just don't like it when women doll up and walk around in little bits of nothing on their body and then feel offended when men confuse them with strippers and behave that way with them.

I think Men are no more visual creatures than Women are.
The only difference is Men are encouraged and conditioned to act on it and Women are actually supressed to act on it.

Curious though, who or what sets the visual parameters for Men then, since it's apparently inate.
- In the Middle East, is it her hair and ankles?
- In parts of africa is it her neck, ass, earlobes, shoulders?
- In Asia is it her legs and feet?
- The U.S, her breasts legs and ass?

Why is there no universal visual consensus?
It's social conditioning and that's pretty much it, looking at the evidence.

l just think that we shouldn't play ignorant. If our dress is very sexy, revealing, sexualised...that's the response we get from men. If we dress ladylike, we get that response from men. There are some idiots who don't get the message but overall it works pretty well. I just don't like it when women doll up and walk around in little bits of nothing on their body and then feel offended when men confuse them with strippers and behave that way with them.

What's dressing ladylike to you?
Is jeans and t-shirt ladylike, or must she wear a skirt and blouse and stockings?

I do get what you're saying but we need to check that we don't dismiss responsibility to the offenders, not just hold the dressee to a standard.

Furthermore, as we see repeatedly, Women who are sexually harrassed at work aren't wearing hot pants and crop tops.

Why is it if a Woman wears shorts and a tank, on a hot day she's objectified whereas a man wearing shorts and a tank is just dressing casual.
Again, we've conditioned ourselves to believe that one is sexy and the other is not.

Bottom line, pervert Men and sexual abusers don't care what a female or male they've set their sights and claws on is wearing, their blatant self-gratification and disregard and disrespect for their victim's body remains their motivation

 

[Madeleine]

I think Men are no more visual creatures than Women are.
The only difference is Men are encouraged and conditioned to act on it and Women are actually supressed to act on it.

Curious though, who or what sets the visual parameters for Men then, since it's apparently inate.
- In the Middle East, is it her hair and ankles?
- In parts of africa is it her neck, ass, earlobes, shoulders?
- In Asia is it her legs and feet?
- The U.S, her breasts legs and ass?

Why is there no universal visual consensus?
It's social conditioning and that's pretty much it, looking at the evidence.


What's dressing ladylike to you?
Is jeans and t-shirt ladylike, or must she wear a skirt and blouse and stockings?

I do get what you're saying but we need to check that we don't dismiss responsibility to the offenders, not just hold the dressee to a standard.

Furthermore, as we see repeatedly, Women who are sexually harrassed at work aren't wearing hot pants and crop tops.

Why is it if a Woman wears shorts and a tank, on a hot day she's objectified whereas a man wearing shorts and a tank is just dressing casual.
Again, we've conditioned ourselves to believe that one is sexy and the other is not.

Bottom line, pervert Men and sexual abusers don't care what a female or male they've set their sights and claws on is wearing, their blatant self-gratification and disregard and disrespect for their victim's body remains their motivation

I emphasized both in my original post and again in my response to Gorath that regardless of what someone chooses to wear nobody has the right to take what wasn't offered to him in clear terms. And I think we have all agreed to that.
Secondly, yes, there are definitely different standards in different cultures as to how it is ok to dress in a certain context and how what one wears would be interpreted. That's why it pays off to be culturally sensitive even with regards to dress. When I went to Abu Dhabi I took a lot of long skirts, long dresses, blouses and scarf to cover the arms (if need be even my hair). It didn't stop the guys from staring right into my knickers (so it felt), but it'd have been worse fir me had I been the only woman wearing shorts and tanktop. Even if we stomp our foot on the ground all day and proclaim our right to wear whatever we want it doesn't change the fact that the way we dress sends a certain message. There's also appropriate and inappropriate dress for men. And I personally believe that it's not just socialization but there's a biological difference between men and women with regards to what seeing a hot woman does to man and what seeing a hot man does to the average woman.
There's no point discussing what exactly is ladylike and what's not because from all I have gathered from my at least 7 trips to the US is that Europeans and Americans have a different style. So what I say might not make much sense to the rest of you. I think this discussion was basically why they started those nude communities where they believe we are all the same so we don't need to dress and all that.

 

[Bliss]

I emphasized both in my original post and again in my response to Gorath that regardless of what someone chooses to wear nobody has the right to take what wasn't offered to him in clear terms. And I think we have all agreed to that.
Secondly, yes, there are definitely different standards in different cultures as to how it is ok to dress in a certain context and how what one wears would be interpreted. That's why it pays off to be culturally sensitive even with regards to dress. When I went to Abu Dhabi I took a lot of long skirts, long dresses, blouses and scarf to cover the arms (if need be even my hair). It didn't stop the guys from staring right into my knickers (so it felt), but it'd have been worse fir me had I been the only woman wearing shorts and tanktop. Even if we stomp our foot on the ground all day and proclaim our right to wear whatever we want it doesn't change the fact that the way we dress sends a certain message. There's also appropriate and inappropriate dress for men. And I personally believe that it's not just socialization but there's a biological difference between men and women with regards to what seeing a hot woman does to man and what seeing a hot man does to the average woman.
There's no point discussing what exactly is ladylike and what's not because from all I have gathered from my at least 7 trips to the US is that Europeans and Americans have a different style. So what I say might not make much sense to the rest of you. I think this discussion was basically why they started those nude communities where they believe we are all the same so we don't need to dress and all that.

No idea about your 'nude communities conversation'.
No addums should EVER accompany the point "you emphasized" to Gorath and I.
It should have been a full stop. Period.
No "..But then again, "girls shouldn't play ignorant" sentences. Cut that crap. Women can wear whatever the hell we want on our bodies in our off time, and screw anyone looking at us who says "don't be surprised when men confuse them and treat them as strippers".
Stop feeding into the bs conditioning.

It's not biological because that would mean men get aroused and erections at the sight of every single woman (or man).
Even in America, culturally some men are not the least bit aroused by women based on her skin color, hair, breasts and ass size, etc, unless a specific type.

Females are just as attracted to men as men are to them. Women didn't just biolgically change from your grandmother's time, to the daughters of the sexual-revolution 60's. The CONDITIONING Changed. (NOT biology.)

 

[Madeleine]

No idea about your 'nude communities conversation'.
No addums should EVER accompany the point "you emphasized" to Gorath and I.
It should have been a full stop. Period.
No "..But then again, "girls shouldn't play ignorant" sentences. Cut that crap. Women can wear whatever the hell we want on our bodies in our off time, and screw anyone looking at us who says "don't be surprised when men confuse them and treat them as strippers".
Stop feeding into the bs conditioning.

It's not biological because that would mean men get aroused and erections at the sight of every single woman (or man).
Even in America, culturally some men are not the least bit aroused by women based on her skin color, hair, breasts and ass size, etc, unless a specific type.

Females are just as attracted to men as men are to them. Women didn't just biolgically change from your grandmother's time, to the daughters of the sexual-revolution 60's. The CONDITIONING Changed. (NOT biology.)

Please don't put things into my mouth I didn't say also don't take my sentences out of context. I have said it several times now that regardless what someone wears it's never a justification for sexual harassment.

I still maintain that differences between the sexes aren't only due to socialization but that there biological differences between men and women. Our brain functions differently, our sexual response is different etc. I never said one is better than the other.
I also maintain that one should use some sense in what to wear to which place. If that doesn't make any sense to you why not wear your bikini to your next business meeting.
If you want to nitpick every word with me now for instance whether "I emphasized" was the right term to use or it actually suggested something else then maybe we'll hold this convo in German from this point on so I can be absolutely sure. But I think most people understand me quite well.

 

[andreboba]

Of course men are more visual sexually than women are.
That's why pornography exists. It's why women have so much pressure to maintain their figures and looks.

It may be different from culture to culture what turns a typical man on, but from my experience most men consider a curvy woman with moderately large breasts sexually arousing.

How many women will marry or date a man and his main attribute is his attractiveness??
Men do this all the time.

Madeline's argument that women are perceived by how they dress is just universal. It's the reason there's something called a professional dress code for women, and men, in most fields of work.
When people dress in a more sexually provocative style, they are perceived to be more sexually available. But I agree most sexual predators aren't triggered just by the clothing of a potential victim.
THe male libido is what allows life on the planet to exist because I don't know of one species where the female pursues the a male for mating.
Sure, female homosexual sapiens pursue men in their own way, but it's not the norm. If a guy never expresses his interest in a woman, she rarely is going to do it for him.

 

[samson1701]

I stayed in a hospital for the first time when I was 15. I had scoliosis and needed an operation. During my stay, I had many nurses look in on me. They were pretty young white women who were also student nurses(the hospital was on the campus of the University of Florida and it was not unusual to have students and interns working along with regular hospital staff). I had only one male nurse. I didn't get to know him as well as the other nurses because I was feeling terrible after the surgery. My mom liked him, though. He was animated and eager to help. He would wake me up and introduce himself, ask me a few questions, ask me to roll to one side to help him change my sheets and other things. One nurse and I were having a discussion and three more nurses came to my bedside. I felt like I was the luckiest kid in the world. But later, I was surprised by one of the nurses. She talked like she was "one of the guys." I guessed she had hung around guys a lot because she was comfortable in talking about Guy things.

When I was rolled into the casting room(I called it the Mummification Room), I was wearing nothing but a body stocking that barely covered my crotch. A Latina technician came in and looked me over for a bit. She remained silent. When she saw the flap covering my crotch she lifted the flap and saw my penis. She looked at me, smiled and left the room. I was surprised and confused. The casting technician came and adjusted the flap and said, "We can't have too many women hanging around here." The casting technicians were male and were funny guys.

Female nurses and caregivers get away with a lot. And, they should. We are men. Most of the time, the same things that bother women don't upset men. It's the way we're built. Our laws should reflect that.

Very unpopular opinion, I know.

 

[Madeleine]

The thing is this: There are normative claims. And there are descriptive claims.
I said that regardless what a woman wears she has the right not to be violated in any way. That's a normative claim.
I also said and gave examples for it that the way one dresses does send a message to the environment. We interpret the way someone dresses as part of the overall package all the time. That is a descriptive statement because that's the way it is in this imperfect world. Now @Bliss if you want to argue that in a perfect world it shouldn’t matter what anyone wears or if he/she wears anything at all...that’d be another normative statement. But that’s not the way it is for now and I doubt it’ll ever be because of human nature. So for now it’s still true that the way we dress matters in all sorts of social and cultural contexts and we need to come to terms with it.

 

[Beasty]

The thing is this: There are normative claims. And there are descriptive claims.
I said that regardless what a woman wears she has the right not to be violated in any way. That's a normative claim.
I also said and gave examples for it that the way one dresses does send a message to the environment. We interpret the way someone dresses as part of the overall package all the time. That is a descriptive statement because that's the way it is in this imperfect world. Now @Bliss if you want to argue that in a perfect world it shouldn’t matter what anyone wears or if he/she wears anything at all...that’d be another normative statement. But that’s not the way it is for now and I doubt it’ll ever be because of human nature. So for now it’s still true that the way we dress matters in all sorts of social and cultural contexts and we need to come to terms with it.

Lol. I just told you how feminists are now you are seeing for yourself. Everyone else here understood what you were saying.

 

[The Dark King]

I think Men are no more visual creatures than Women are.
The only difference is Men are encouraged and conditioned to act on it and Women are actually supressed to act on it.

Curious though, who or what sets the visual parameters for Men then, since it's apparently inate.
- In the Middle East, is it her hair and ankles?
- In parts of africa is it her neck, ass, earlobes, shoulders?
- In Asia is it her legs and feet?
- The U.S, her breasts legs and ass?

Why is there no universal visual consensus?
It's social conditioning and that's pretty much it, looking at the evidence.


What's dressing ladylike to you?
Is jeans and t-shirt ladylike, or must she wear a skirt and blouse and stockings?

I do get what you're saying but we need to check that we don't dismiss responsibility to the offenders, not just hold the dressee to a standard.

Furthermore, as we see repeatedly, Women who are sexually harrassed at work aren't wearing hot pants and crop tops.

Why is it if a Woman wears shorts and a tank, on a hot day she's objectified whereas a man wearing shorts and a tank is just dressing casual.
Again, we've conditioned ourselves to believe that one is sexy and the other is not.

Bottom line, pervert Men and sexual abusers don't care what a female or male they've set their sights and claws on is wearing, their blatant self-gratification and disregard and disrespect for their victim's body remains their motivation

And that's total horseshit wanna know why? Beautiful women can genuinely fall in love with a less attractive guy men for the most part can't. That's why men don't care about your credentials or what school you went none of that determines to the same degree whether or not we want to have sex with you. That's why more women adore Michelle Obama than men. Lovely woman but ain't nobody getting hot for her. Women on the other hand get wet over powerful and accomplished men. Visual is way more important to men

 

[Madeleine]

Lol. I just told you how feminists are now you are seeing for yourself. Everyone else here understood what you were saying.

...yeah...but some feminists say they wanna live with a Massai warrior...lemme just leave it there for now...

 

[Beasty]

...yeah...but some feminists say they wanna live with a Massai warrior...lemme just leave it there for now...

 

[Gorath]

Female nurses and caregivers get away with a lot. And, they should. We are men. Most of the time, the same things that bother women don't upset men. It's the way we're built. Our laws should reflect that.

Very unpopular opinion, I know.

It's not an unpopular opinion. Because I was 15, I had no idea that female nurses talked that way. My mother was an RN and I don't think she spoke to patients the way these women did. I guess I chalk it up to the fact that the hospital is not a happy place and humor is to be expected.

 

[Madeleine]

Absolutely! Men and anyone else that think like that needs professional help and shouldn't be around people for awhile. Looking at woman that is dressed sexy is another story and is also the way the man is looking at her. Nothing wrong with admiration. This society is so immature and ignorant sexually, more so men. But it has to do with the way we have treated nudity, sex and sexuality. Especially in this country. Violence is more acceptable on TV than nudity. I seen PG rated movies that had fight scenes in them. Humanity has totally fucked the nature of our own species. And it's all shallow, superficial. Underneath our skin is nothing but blood and muscle tissue. Not very attractive.

On nudity in films: I came across „Before Midnight“ with Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke the other day. They play a married couple who are on a nice holiday in Greece. Go back to the hotel room and start making out before randomly getting into a completely useless, extremely long argument. What surprised me was that the making-out scene showed Julie Delpy with completely exposed breasts, no bra, from the front with the guy licking and sucking her breast. Was wondering if they showed that scene in the US version or whether that was only in the Euro version.

 

[darkcurry]

On nudity in films: I came across „Before Midnight“ with Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke the other day. They play a married couple who are on a nice holiday in Greece. Go back to the hotel room and start making out before randomly getting into a completely useless, extremely long argument. What surprised me was that the making-out scene showed Julie Delpy with completely exposed breasts, no bra, from the front with the guy licking and sucking her breast. Was wondering if they showed that scene in the US version or whether that was only in the Euro version.

I seen that movie. Julie Delpy is really opened and free about nudity on film. I was too taken back by the actual mouth contact on the breast, but nowdays I guess some of these stars don't mind that, I seen it on TV so much now it's like it's a normal part of the sex scene. What I WAS surprised by though this year was how far some of IR sex scenes went with black men in them. I posted one of them in the IR sex scenes thread where this brotha is in a graphic sex scene with a white woman. They usually have sex scenes between black men and white women be more tame, still hot and erotic, but tame.