Emma Watson's Response To Being Called A White Feminist

If any woman who calls herself a feminist and then supports white supremacy, in my book is not a true feminist but is hijacking feminism like the terrorist hijack Islam.

To me, feminism is about the struggle for understanding and equality, for women, but for all, and if a “feminist” is not supportive of rights of others such as race, she misses the whole point.

Human nature has its bad side, and there will always be those who use a good cause as a guise or good causes can get infiltrated with bad people.
 
Meowkittenmeow, did you take courses in Women's Studies in college??

I haven't met one dude who can go deep about intersectionality and 2nd/3rd/4th wave feminism as it relates to the overall movement.
If you did, kudos to you bro.

That's just too deep for me personally into the psychological/emotional underpinnings of modern feminism.

Once you get past women seeking basic educational and professional gender equality, I'm hearing white noise.

And so far from what I've read, the link between White supremacy and (White)feminism is specious at best.
 
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andreboba said:
Meowkittenmeow, did you take courses in Women's Studies in college??

I haven't met one dude who can go deep about intersectionality and 2nd/3rd/4th wave feminism as it relates to the overall movement.
If you did, kudos to you bro.

That's just too deep for me personally into the psychological/emotional underpinnings of modern feminism.

Once you get past women seeking basic educational and professional gender equality, I'm hearing white noise.

And so far from what I've read, the link between White supremacy and (White)feminism is specious at best.
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Yeah, I really appreciate a guy who is or has read or learned a little about feminism, and supports it, or at least supports women.

I don’t expect him to march or anything, but just as black guys in an I interracial retaliationship with a white woman would like her to be woke and understanding and willing to learn and listen, I would want my man black, white or whatever to be willing to listen and learn about issues that affect women. If he wants to turn a blind eye or just not care or show any sympathy or interest, (if no interest from a back man, then that would be just black noise for me), I don’t think I could be with him. Relationships take mutual learning and understanding and if one has an attitude of I don’t care to know or listen, that relationship will not last. It is fundamental, we all can learn, and an attitude of all knowing and no openness will not work. This goes not just women in the public sphere but in the private, in home and in the bedroom, for example for sexual relations to work, both man and woman need to have a basic knowledge of sex Ed and sexuality.
 
K said:
Why?
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I get my education from women, including journalist Abby Martin who is an AWESOME feminist.
missshyness said:
If any woman who calls herself a feminist and then supports white supremacy, in my book is not a true feminist but is hijacking feminism like the terrorist hijack Islam.

To me, feminism is about the struggle for understanding and equality, for women, but for all, and if a “feminist” is not supportive of rights of others such as race, she misses the whole point.

Human nature has its bad side, and there will always be those who use a good cause as a guise or good causes can get infiltrated with bad people.
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Exactly. And that "small" part seems to get missed by people. I said this about BLM in the past about them really needing to condemn those that abuse their message and fight and don't let it or them blur their message and fight.
 
darkcurry said:
I get my education from women, including journalist Abby Martin who is an AWESOME feminist.


Exactly. And that "small" part seems to get missed by people. I said this about BLM in the past about them really needing to condemn those that abuse their message and fight and don't let it or them blur their message and fight.
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That’s great that there are guys willing to learn from women, too many just like to think they know it all. If he has that much knowledge of feminism, all the waves, I would be impressed, I would know I could talk to him about stuff and that he has an open mind.
 
darkcurry said:
I get my education from women, including journalist Abby Martin who is an AWESOME feminist.
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Yah, I just am surprised by boba's comment about finding it odd that Black men would be interested in discussing what feminism is and isn't.
 
andreboba said:
Meowkittenmeow, did you take courses in Women's Studies in college??

I haven't met one dude who can go deep about intersectionality and 2nd/3rd/4th wave feminism as it relates to the overall movement.
If you did, kudos to you bro.

That's just too deep for me personally into the psychological/emotional underpinnings of modern feminism.

Once you get past women seeking basic educational and professional gender equality, I'm hearing white noise.

And so far from what I've read, the link between White supremacy and (White)feminism is specious at best.
Click to expand...
I was a feminist supporter for years until experiencing first hand how they treat male rape victims, and considering the woman who raped me is a self proclaimed feminist, I began to look deeper.

But, I was raised with it, and because of all of this I am able to see it's flaws. But, I suppose my opinions might be considered whining and snowflakey. I'm a moderate, so I tend to look at the positives and negatives of the left and right.

But, yes, I am well versed in many aspects of feminism, womanism, from the suffragettes, to the league of woman voters, to the fat ins of the 1960s and the radical valerie solanas to womanism and clenora hudson weems and alice walker, to this current wave.

I have no issue listening to women talk about their experiences, the predatory behavior they experience at the hands of men, as well as equal pay and equal opportunity.

I do find that they aren't inclined to listen to men, which brings the whole "gender equality" into question. But, I've already discussed a lot of this. But, yes, I take interest in all things that affects me, and if it affects women it also affects me and the way I interact with the world around me.

I understand that you aren't interested in things like left thoughts of intersectionality and the like, so, I will just leave it at that.
 
"White feminism" vs women of color isn't surprising to me. 3rd wave feminism is a very messy thing, and it has no standards. Feminism is literally whatever anyone says it is.

  • Some feminist think embracing and flaunting their physical sexuality is feminism, and some feminist think that visual displays of female sexuality oppress' women.
  • Some feminist think that transgender women should be embraced as real women, and some feminists think transgender women are co-opting their struggle and should not be considered women at all.
  • Some feminists think that staying at home with their children is as valid of a choice as any other career, and some feminist think that stay at home mothers are oppressed victims of a patriarchal society.
And believe it or not
  • Some feminist think the right to choose an abortion is a key tenant of feminism, and yet there are feminist who think abortion is akin to violence against women.
It's these contradictions and ill-defined standards that drive a lot of people away from feminism altogether.
 
missshyness said:
Yeah, I really appreciate a guy who is or has read or learned a little about feminism, and supports it, or at least supports women.

I don’t expect him to march or anything, but just as black guys in an I interracial retaliationship with a white woman would like her to be woke and understanding and willing to learn and listen, I would want my man black, white or whatever to be willing to listen and learn about issues that affect women. If he wants to turn a blind eye or just not care or show any sympathy or interest, (if no interest from a back man, then that would be just black noise for me), I don’t think I could be with him. Relationships take mutual learning and understanding and if one has an attitude of I don’t care to know or listen, that relationship will not last. It is fundamental, we all can learn, and an attitude of all knowing and no openness will not work. This goes not just women in the public sphere but in the private, in home and in the bedroom, for example for sexual relations to work, both man and woman need to have a basic knowledge of sex Ed and sexuality.
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Black noise?
 
Thump said:
"White feminism" vs women of color isn't surprising to me. 3rd wave feminism is a very messy thing, and it has no standards. Feminism is literally whatever anyone says it is.

  • Some feminist think embracing and flaunting their physical sexuality is feminism, and some feminist think that visual displays of female sexuality oppress' women.
  • Some feminist think that transgender women should be embraced as real women, and some feminists think transgender women are co-opting their struggle and should not be considered women at all.
  • Some feminists think that staying at home with their children is as valid of a choice as any other career, and some feminist think that stay at home mothers are oppressed victims of a patriarchal society.
And believe it or not
  • Some feminist think the right to choose an abortion is a key tenant of feminism, and yet there are feminist who think abortion is akin to violence against women.
It's these contradictions and ill-defined standards that drive a lot of people away from feminism altogether.
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Yup, this is where I'm at. I understand and support many of the basic tenets of feminism and gender rights and equality, but modern feminism in many aspects goes waaaaayyyy over my head.
Once it becomes too political or way too critical of every aspect of modern society, it's hard to relate.

Even the term 'feminism' for many women is a self-defining term and only has specific meaning to them. Cool.

But I still go back to the point that some non-white feminists use the term 'White feminist' as a slur, and I believe it was used that way against Emma Watson.
 
Feminism always loses me when they bemoan the way men treat women and I always have to ask which men? Not all of us are part of the patriarchy in fact black men are the least likely threat in this country. Compared to our female counterparts we are disadvantaged in every single metric of power yet we get lumped in. It's sickening when someone tries to tell me I'm a man I don't get it or I'm part of the patriarchy. Simple truth is the power structure they call the patriarchy is only for rich white men and most times WASPs.
For a group who's foundation is based on equality, intersectionality, and nuance they constantly miss this point. When here women say "men should shut up and listen" which men are you referring to because 1. how do we have a meaningful dialogue if you're the only one talking and 2. assuming my position is anti woman from the get go creates walls to allies. Sorry to break it to you but the path to equality can't be done with women alone. Unlike race we can't segregate and keep the species going not to mention the natural drives that will always push us together instead of apart.
I'm still waiting for feminist to describe what they want from the average man. How do we fight the patriarchy you want us to fight. Why do you even call it the patriarchy? Would it be too accurate to calling white male supremacy? Would it be too hard to stop pretending that men of color especially in this country have the power to oppress anyone?
 
andreboba said:
I think she was being sarcastic towards me because I used the term 'white noise' after mentioning how some ideologies in feminism I can't relate to personally.
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Yep that was it, there is actually a skit on the show Saturday Night Live with Kenan Thompson doing a take off on the term white noise with a black noise skit. That is where I got the term from. I got a little snarky there, since boba basically tunes women out with the term white noise, when feminism gets to far or deep for him, and since we are discussing white women and black men, I remembered the skit of black noise from that show.
 
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meowkittenmeow said:
Based off of your comments there is the definition of feminism, what feminism actually does, and what you feel feminism is.

I am not basing my opinions on what you individually feel feminism is. I am basing it on both the definition and what it does. I can't begin to know what you feel feminism is to you, and although I don't want to know, I understand and support your right to feel that way.

But, as I said, I am not talking about your individual definition of feminism, just the regular definition as it pertains to the things feminism does and has done.

I hope that explains it as I meant no offense to your personal definition.
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But that's the point, you feel there is one definition of feminism... yours.
It simply isn't the case.
Just as there isn't one definition of Christianity.
These things are subjective, which is why applying such terms as labels and passing judgement based on that is fraught with dangers and, at best, likely to cause as many problems as it solves.
 
The Dark King said:
Feminism always loses me when they bemoan the way men treat women and I always have to ask which men? Not all of us are part of the patriarchy in fact black men are the least likely threat in this country. Compared to our female counterparts we are disadvantaged in every single metric of power yet we get lumped in. It's sickening when someone tries to tell me I'm a man I don't get it or I'm part of the patriarchy. Simple truth is the power structure they call the patriarchy is only for rich white men and most times WASPs.
For a group who's foundation is based on equality, intersectionality, and nuance they constantly miss this point. When here women say "men should shut up and listen" which men are you referring to because 1. how do we have a meaningful dialogue if you're the only one talking and 2. assuming my position is anti woman from the get go creates walls to allies. Sorry to break it to you but the path to equality can't be done with women alone. Unlike race we can't segregate and keep the species going not to mention the natural drives that will always push us together instead of apart.
I'm still waiting for feminist to describe what they want from the average man. How do we fight the patriarchy you want us to fight. Why do you even call it the patriarchy? Would it be too accurate to calling white male supremacy? Would it be too hard to stop pretending that men of color especially in this country have the power to oppress anyone?
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Some good points, as to waiting for a feminist to describe what she wants from the average man? that is a big question, and is almost impossible to get a single simple answer, as nice as that would be. The eternal question; what do women want?

I cant say I can speak for all women, so I will just try to give some fellas here my take, of what I would want from the average man as I have said earlier in this thread. I dont require him to know all about all aspects of women's issues or feminism, but I would like him to be sensitive to them. I would want the average man to approach me with an open mind and heart, dont be a know it all, dont think I have nothing to offer, or think you are better than I for any reason. Be willing to listen and communicate, and realize he can learn something. Most of all, be willing to learn and listen. I have read so many times how open dialogue is so critically important and that either party does not try to shut the other down. Be sympathetic, and try to cultivate empathy, try or be able to stop and think for a minute and place yourself in someone else's shoes, and ask yourself how would you feel? Be able to look beyond just your viewpoints and opinions and see the other side. Be aware and empathetic to other people's concerns and suffering, as there is always someone else suffering besides you.

This goes both ways, and those ones who call themselves feminists who just blame or come at you clumping you in with patriarchy are not listening thinking and being open minded. They are going against all the things I think are important for any two people to negotiate, such as shutting the other down.

Off my soapbox now, hope that helps, feminism is not all one thing. It means many different things to different women, and a lot depends on the individual women and her personal experiences. It is too bad some here seem to feel so bitter and confused about feminism. As I said earlier in this thread, there are bad apples in any movement, and women are human, capable of good and bad. Some may have taken feminism to an extreme, and just go about blaming without thinking things through. Hope that helps you guys.
 
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missshyness said:
If any woman who calls herself a feminist and then supports white supremacy, in my book is not a true feminist but is hijacking feminism like the terrorist hijack Islam.
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Absolutely this.

missshyness said:
To me, feminism is about the struggle for understanding and equality, for women, but for all, and if a “feminist” is not supportive of rights of others such as race, she misses the whole point.
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Absolutely this too. And that understanding and that struggle will be different for everyone, which is exactly the point Emma is making.
Too often terms like feminist are bandied around in ways which are divisive and used to pigeonhole, classify and separate people. Which is the total opposite of what it's all about.

missshyness said:
Human nature has its bad side, and there will always be those who use a good cause as a guise or good causes can get infiltrated with bad people.
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Absolutely. History is littered with such examples. Marginalist or extremist groups will always try to "claim" good and worthy causes as their own to try and lend themselves legitimacy and broader appeal. As is the case here... White supremacists conveniently forgetting to mention the supremacist part, but making sure they include the feminist part.
 
redlolly said:
Absolutely this.


Absolutely this too. And that understanding and that struggle will be different for everyone, which is exactly the point Emma is making.
Too often terms like feminist are bandied around in ways which are divisive and used to pigeonhole, classify and separate people. Which is the total opposite of what it's all about.


Absolutely. History is littered with such examples. Marginalist or extremist groups will always try to "claim" good and worthy causes as their own to try and lend themselves legitimacy and broader appeal. As is the case here... White supremacists conveniently forgetting to mention the supremacist part, but making sure they include the feminist part.
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Yes and unfortunately, maybe that is what some of these guys here have experienced, but they should know that not all feminists are like this.
 
missshyness said:
Yes and unfortunately, maybe that is what some of these guys here have experienced, but they should know that not all feminists are like this.
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Totally.
Which is why I'm on this thread.
Not all feminists are like this
Not all white feminists are like this
Defining these people with the banner "white feminists" is wrong in much more cases than it is right.
 
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