Forget About Black Ty Or Common Playing Green Lantern

[JamalSpunky]

Keep claiming comic movies for men only, and you'll wind up with the same sorry rut the industry was in during the mid 90's.

What rut are you referring to? The comic industry or comic book films? Regardless either way both forms are still geared heavily towards men because the female characters are mostly of little significance. That's how sexist the industry (both industries) remain. Storytelling has always made the difference between those works that were successful and of high quality and those that were not. Being mindful of female consumers has never improved or worsened the quality of comic books or comic book films. And as a person who thinks that both industries don't do enough to grow a strong female following, I find it absurd that they continue to make these artforms almost exclusively from the male point of view.

 

[karmacoma.]

Jesus, you know nothing about the comic industry. The truth is that everyone is in on the joke that the majority of female characters are not only impossibly beautiful but they have these fantasy bodies in which their waists are thin and their breasts are gigantic and curvy. There have been actual discussions, essays and articles about how the images of women in comic books, as is the case of video games, set ridiculous standards for girls in terms of what is the ideal feminine look. So if TPTB of films have cast actresses that were walking boobs rather than true thespians then they woud actually would be guilty of being true to the representation of women in comic books.

And for your information countless fanboys (as geeky as this may sound) have debated in public and over the internet about whether the right actresses were cast for Storm and Jean Grey. No one thought Halle Berry looked like Storm. And the woman playing Jean Grey was deemed too old, not cute enough and not as shapely as Jean Grey was shown to be in the comic. So, yes, the debates concerning the female characters and actresses were constant. But discussions about Wolverine and High Jackman basically never surfaced.




No one takes issue with good looking guys playing a Superman, Batman, Thor, Iron Man, Human Torch, Robin, Captain America, etc. Why? Because that's the way the characters were portrayed in the comic books either when out of costume and/or when in costume. Christian Bale fits because Bruce Wayne is supposed to be a dashing, tall, playboy. So there's no big deal. If anything many thought Robert Downey Jr wasn't dashing enough to play Tony Stake/Iron man and frankly before the masses saw that film that was a legitimate argument. So if you thought I and other guys objected to the idea of good looking guys playing these roles you were wrong. The objection comes when pretty boys are cast to play the characters that were never known for their looks.



So this is why Wolverine, back in the day, didn't think Jean Grey could love an ugly little runt like himself (which is basically how he described himself when the new X-Men had burst on the scene). That Wolverine was NEVER portrayed as a handsome, lady's man. Not even a handsome rugged man. He was not "dreamy" as the Hugh Jackman character has been described as in the media. Now perhaps over the last ten years comic book artists have started drawing Wolverine as a guy who could be mistaken for a GQ model but back when the X-Men was actually a good comic and Wolverine was still fresh (rather than overexposed) he was drawn and described as an average looking and somewhat creepy guy. So can we dismiss with the revisionism?

CBQ is arguing just to be arguing, it's not like she knows comics.

 

[chicity]

Jesus, you know nothing about the comic industry.

Hint: While you were working in a comic book shop? I was a publisher.

The truth is that everyone is in on the joke that the majority of female characters are not only impossibly beautiful but they have these fantasy bodies in which their waists are thin and their breasts are gigantic and curvy. There have been actual discussions, essays and articles about how the images of women in comic books, as is the case of video games, set ridiculous standards for girls in terms of what is the ideal feminine look. So if TPTB of films have cast actresses that were walking boobs rather than true thespians then they woud actually would be guilty of being true to the representation of women in comic books.

And for your information countless fanboys (as geeky as this may sound) have debated in public and over the internet about whether the right actresses were cast for Storm and Jean Grey. No one thought Halle Berry looked like Storm. And the woman playing Jean Grey was deemed too old, not cute enough and not as shapely as Jean Grey was shown to be in the comic. So, yes, the debates concerning the female characters and actresses were constant. But discussions about Wolverine and High Jackman basically never surfaced.

Nothing you say there disagrees with what I posted. I don't know why you're telling me any of this.

I used to speak to colleges about the portrayal of women in comic books, and was an active supporter of friends of Lulu. Their little flier about the average female superhero says it all.

My point was, it's a little ridiculous to bitch about casting attractive men in comic book character roles, when we're talking about an industry that portrays women as sex goddesses.

No one takes issue with good looking guys playing a Superman, Batman, Thor, Iron Man, Human Torch, Robin, Captain America, etc. Why? Because that's the way the characters were portrayed in the comic books either when out of costume and/or when in costume. Christian Bale fits because Bruce Wayne is supposed to be a dashing, tall, playboy. So there's no big deal. If anything many thought Robert Downey Jr wasn't dashing enough to play Tony Stake/Iron man and frankly before the masses saw that film that was a legitimate argument. So if you thought I and other guys objected to the idea of good looking guys playing these roles you were wrong. The objection comes when pretty boys are cast to play the characters that were never known for their looks.


So this is why Wolverine, back in the day, didn't think Jean Grey could love an ugly little runt like himself (which is basically how he described himself when the new X-Men had burst on the scene). That Wolverine was NEVER portrayed as a handsome, lady's man. Not even a handsome rugged man. He was not "dreamy" as the Hugh Jackman character has been described as in the media. Now perhaps over the last ten years comic book artists have started drawing Wolverine as a guy who could be mistaken for a GQ model but back when the X-Men was actually a good comic and Wolverine was still fresh (rather than overexposed) he was drawn and described as an average looking and somewhat creepy guy. So can we dismiss with the revisionism?

Um, no. I read X-Men back in the 90's, and I talked with the fangirls then. They all thought Wolverine was hot. You can keep insisting that you as a man have a better idea of what's attractive than women, but that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.

 

[chicity]

CBQ is arguing just to be arguing, it's not like she knows comics.

Nah, I'm just a girl.

 

[chicity]

Being mindful of female consumers has never improved or worsened the quality of comic books or comic book films.

Patently ignoring female consumers had a huge impact on the absolute crappiness of some comics prior to the industry crash in the mid 90's (and yes, that was an engineered crash, but it was preceeded by years of the two majors putting out some truly awful comics).

Diversity builds quality in storytelling. If you only tell stories from one viewpoint, say, guy's, then the women's dialogue starts to sound like shit. If you don't hire female writers, then the female characters get increasingly boring. If you don't hire female artists, then the male characters start looking asexual, and the females defy gravity (hence my earlier comment about how they'd all tip over in real life).

The two majors fought long & hard to keep this industry white male and straight. That is a boring fucking world.

It's hard to come up with new ideas, when you insist on looking at things from only one viewpoint.

I agree with you that the industry is stupid for actively fighting against female readership.

It's better now, much better, than in the 90's, when I was the ONLY woman at Chicago Comicon not in costume, but it's nowhere near comparable to other entertainment industries.

 

[Persephone]

Nah, I'm just a girl.

Which means you're dumb when it comes to comics. Didn't you know that, dear? We need to stop reading comics and get back in the kitchen. It's not like we could ever know anything about them, or wanna make them, or anything like that, of course!

But on the serious side...you've published comics before?! <3

...publish mine! >.> haha. It'd be amazing if I could get a good team together to help me with the artwork. My penciling isn't strong enough yet, but my colouring and ability with wording and scriptwriting is pretty good. And my pet character? A strong woman who doesn't take shit from nobody.

 

[chicity]

Which means you're dumb when it comes to comics. Didn't you know that, dear? We need to stop reading comics and get back in the kitchen. It's not like we could ever know anything about them, or wanna make them, or anything like that, of course!

But on the serious side...you've published comics before?! <3

...publish mine! >.> haha. It'd be amazing if I could get a good team together to help me with the artwork. My penciling isn't strong enough yet, but my colouring and ability with wording and scriptwriting is pretty good. And my pet character? A strong woman who doesn't take shit from nobody.

Your art is really awesome, you're gonna do great, no doubt.

I walked away from the industry after the crash in the 90's, and haven't gone back. I don't have *any* contacts anymore, really, and all my artists have gone into other industries.

We did pretty well for a little while, got REALLY amazing reviews, and got to meet some real heros of the industry. Not that that converts to dollars at ALL in the industry, but it's great for the ego.

We were planning a Women in Comic Books convention before we closed up shop, and that still nags at me. Someday we may get back into it, I'm not saying I don't think about it, but today's not the day for me.

So I'm not much help.

You *really do* need help if you're putting out your own book, tho. I know that's hard. My husband was art director back in the day, and we had a number of great artists, but motherfuckers don't work on schedule in comic books, and they sure as hell don't work on schedule before they start getting real money, so he ended up taking most of it on himself. Damn near killed him.

Most independents end up doing that, and it's horrible on them.

Since you're in school, lemme say: if you can, take some anatomy courses whenever you can, and maybe some life drawing as well. The line between the artists who showed up at the independent conventions every year but never sold anything and the ones who actually competed with the major two and made real waves was consistently between those who knew where muscles and bones were supposed to be and those who kept drawing lines where none should be (I still remember the guy who kept giving women 3 extra ribs for no reason). The more precise you are with your knowledge of the human body, the faster penciling goes. Of course, that's all from observation -- I was an editor, a writer, but mostly a businesswoman, never one of the artists, so take as many grains of salt with what I say as you like.

I wish I could be more help to you, teaming up sounds like it would be a hell of an adventure, but I'm too deep into what I'm working on now, so I'd hold you back right now.

If you ever need any advice from an old veteran out of the game, however, I'm your gal

... Not to mention your loyal fan. Any time you have work out, please let me know so I can go to all my local comic book shops and demand they carry it, and buy stacks of 'em.

 

[Persephone]

Your art is really awesome, you're gonna do great, no doubt.

I walked away from the industry after the crash in the 90's, and haven't gone back. I don't have *any* contacts anymore, really, and all my artists have gone into other industries.

We did pretty well for a little while, got REALLY amazing reviews, and got to meet some real heros of the industry. Not that that converts to dollars at ALL in the industry, but it's great for the ego.

We were planning a Women in Comic Books convention before we closed up shop, and that still nags at me. Someday we may get back into it, I'm not saying I don't think about it, but today's not the day for me.

So I'm not much help.

You *really do* need help if you're putting out your own book, tho. I know that's hard. My husband was art director back in the day, and we had a number of great artists, but motherfuckers don't work on schedule in comic books, and they sure as hell don't work on schedule before they start getting real money, so he ended up taking most of it on himself. Damn near killed him.

Most independents end up doing that, and it's horrible on them.

Since you're in school, lemme say: if you can, take some anatomy courses whenever you can, and maybe some life drawing as well. The line between the artists who showed up at the independent conventions every year but never sold anything and the ones who actually competed with the major two and made real waves was consistently between those who knew where muscles and bones were supposed to be and those who kept drawing lines where none should be (I still remember the guy who kept giving women 3 extra ribs for no reason). The more precise you are with your knowledge of the human body, the faster penciling goes. Of course, that's all from observation -- I was an editor, a writer, but mostly a businesswoman, never one of the artists, so take as many grains of salt with what I say as you like.

I wish I could be more help to you, teaming up sounds like it would be a hell of an adventure, but I'm too deep into what I'm working on now, so I'd hold you back right now.

If you ever need any advice from an old veteran out of the game, however, I'm your gal

... Not to mention your loyal fan. Any time you have work out, please let me know so I can go to all my local comic book shops and demand they carry it, and buy stacks of 'em.

Well, I've taken two life drawing classes (one with an emphasis on anatomy, learning the bones and muscles and stuff, the other just a "draw these models" class, though both had a heavy emphasis on drawing live, nude models) and there's generally a free class every week at my school where we have nude models, though I never have the time to go to it. My schedule never allows it, but if it ever does I wanna go just because I love having models available. Much better than internet stock photos.

If I try, I don't have too many issues with anatomy..my main issue with penciling is that for some reason I can't keep my drawings very clean. They only appear clean and nice when I shade heavily, and with comics you need to keep them crisp and clear for the inking and colouring stages. But, when I colour other people's lines it turns out fabulous, so if I ever do get to work in comics I'd flourish in writing the story, colouring, and maybe helping with coming up with character designs, but that's me concentrating on my strengths.

Today I've got the first day of my Sequential Design class, though, which is literally a class where we make comics. I'm excited, it should be fun, and maybe the practice will help! Who knows?

I've been sitting on a project or two for a few years now. I think my stories are really good (but then, everyone thinks their own stories are awesome. lol) and that my characters are at once fantastic, yet believable. I've learned from reactions to my writings that I posess the ability to fashion realistic personalities and dialogue, at least. Some of the most flattering compliments I've recieved, both in class and out, have been towards my characters and the flow of their dialogue.

Really, if I weren't such an art freak I'd be happy just writing. The English language has always been a passion of mine, and I love writing just about anything. lol And I love my characters, of course. Especially my winged lady. She's the pet character I mentioned, and she's very versatile...I think she'd work well as either a star, or a supporting character. I've even built an interesting little world for her to live in, though most of it is still just in my head. A lot of my writings involving her have gotten lost over the years. -_-

Anyway, I'm just rambling. Gotta get ready for class! I definitely wouldn't mind some critique from you sometime, if you wouldn't mind reading some of my stories...though they probably won't be in the proper format for a script. lol But it could introduce you to some of my characters and you could tell me if you think they'd actually have a chance of selling someday! I think your input would be quite valuable.

But I must run now!

We'll continue this conversation in the future, ohhhh yes.

 

[JamalSpunky]

Hint: While you were working in a comic book shop? I was a publisher.

Then of all people you should know better. Maybe being a publisher put you a little out of touch of at least in terms of what the average male reader thought. The conversations in the comic book stores that I was part of were even more engaging and thoughtful than the conversations in the barbershops.

Nothing you say there disagrees with what I posted. I don't know why you're telling me any of this.

No, we do have some clear differences of opinion.

My point was, it's a little ridiculous to bitch about casting attractive men in comic book character roles, when we're talking about an industry that portrays women as sex goddesses.

Again, how? For example....the daytime industry is probably filled with males who look better on average than the women. Daytime TV is not filled with a bunch of ridiculously curvy young women because its main audience is female. And as a result the female audience is more interested in male eye candy so therefore the guys that are often cast look like dudes one could put on covers of romance novels. The comic book industry and the gaming industry is the reverse; its male dominated and its male artists and male readers tend to prefer their women looking a certain way. Of course that doesn't mean there isn't going to be plenty of idealized male characters as well. The male superheroes are mostly idealized too. But the overt sexuality of women is on display far more than that of men. And the comic industry will provide male characters (like the original interpretation of Wolverine) who are less than handsome than it will female characters who are less than pretty. You now that as well as I do. So the point is male comic book fans don't object to the idealization of some male superhero characters because that fits how those characters have always been portrayed. Superman is a perfect example of this. But some of us do balk at the idea of making the average-looking heroes into pretty boys just to cater to the female ticket buyer. But it goes without saying, as sexist as this may sound, that male audiences tend to want to see Megan Fox-like babes play the main female roles, whether they be superheroes themselves or simply girlfriends. I know plenty of guys who hated Kirsten Dunst in the Spiderman films because they didn't find her as attractive as the character in the comic. I thought she was great because she is a legitimate actress but I may be in the minority.

Um, no. I read X-Men back in the 90's, and I talked with the fangirls then. They all thought Wolverine was hot. You can keep insisting that you as a man have a better idea of what's attractive than women, but that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.

Shoot, every person has enough understanding of what society claims is ideal in terms of looks to give an opinion. It doesn't matter if I'm a straight male, I can still give my two cents and be just as good a judge. For decades many ladies found Mick Jagger attractive but that doesn't mean in any way he fits society's so-called definition of male beauty. same can be said of Tupac whom I could never stand and never understood what girls saw in him. But of course often times women can be attracted to a man’s charisma, his confidence, his celebrity, his style, etc. It doesn't always have to be about the looks. And to women's credit they are more open to the idea to looking past the surface than guys are. So I feel that Wolverine fits that category too. Not some stud like Superman or some pretty boy like Gambit, but a guy so cool and so charismatic that he becomes "hot" based upon those special traits. And lets be honest...you women often like the bad boys who don't follow the straight and narrow as well as the guy who seem to be a bit more closed off when it comes to matters of the heart. And Wolverine fits that description. Which is why I never understood the casting of a dude who looks like a Chipendale dancer to play Wolverine. If done right the studio could have cast a guy who looked more like an average guy but who could have still stolen the hearts of all the ladies because of how rebellious and unpredictable and exciting his character is. But typical Hollywood stacked the deck and cast Jackman who really didn't have to do much work to wi the hearts of women other than show his face and body on the screen. And that's why some guys like myself called foul on that.

Patently ignoring female consumers had a huge impact on the absolute crappiness of some comics prior to the industry crash in the mid 90's (and yes, that was an engineered crash, but it was preceeded by years of the two majors putting out some truly awful comics).

There’s a crash right now. It has been building for years too. Know why? Because the same product is still being put out. And 90% of it is still by and about white males….and I may be underestimating the numbers. Also the storytelling is stale and recycled regardless of the sex and race of the lead characters. And I gotta say the 90s didn’t do jack for the industry nor has the 2000s. There haven’t been any Watchmens, no Miller Daredevils, no Ronin, no Marv Wolfman and George Perez Teen Titans, no Claremont and Byrne X-Men, no Dark Knight Returns, no Alan Moore Swamp Thing, etc. (I’m limiting my conversations to DC and Marvel right now). The freshness of Crisis On Infinite Earths is long gone and in its palce are the millionth new cross-the-board crossovers which promise to shake up the DC or Marvel universe. Other than Neil Gaiman’s early 90s work with The Sandman what truly defining comics have come from the Big Two in the past two decades?

And as for female consumers there is a reason American female are just or more likely to buy manga than they are American mainstream comics. Manga, as sexist as they can be at times, provide plenty of female leads.

Diversity builds quality in storytelling. If you only tell stories from one viewpoint, say, guy's, then the women's dialogue starts to sound like shit. If you don't hire female writers, then the female characters get increasingly boring. If you don't hire female artists, then the male characters start looking asexual, and the females defy gravity (hence my earlier comment about how they'd all tip over in real life).

Agree. And still at the Big Two there are still hardly any female writers and not many minority writers. So what has changed?

The two majors fought long & hard to keep this industry white male and straight. That is a boring fucking world.

Its still that way. And movies, after flirting with some diversity in the late 80s and 90s, are becoming that way again too. That’s in part because movies are increasingly dipping into the comic book pool to provide new films. Unfortunately 98% of the most established and well-know comic book characters are white males.

Nice chat. We don’t see eye-to-eye on everything but I respect where you’re coming from. Keep up the good fight in the industry.

 

[chicity]

Then of all people you should know better. Maybe being a publisher put you a little out of touch of at least in terms of what the average male reader thought. The conversations in the comic book stores that I was part of were even more engaging and thoughtful than the conversations in the barbershops.

No better than what? You seem to have misread me, because I didn't ever suggest that no one is talking about the way female characters appear, or that people weren't aware of the problem.

Please quote the part where you think I should know better, because for the life of me I don't know what you're talking about.

Again, how? For example....the daytime industry is probably filled with males who look better on average than the women. Daytime TV is not filled with a bunch of ridiculously curvy young women because its main audience is female.

Not true. They rarely have bigger women on daytime soaps, for instance. There's a character on OTLT that is heavier, and they had her on for a minute and then tried to write her off. It took a huge fan campaign to stop this, and now they realize that the fans won't accept her not being there, but she's an anomaly, not the norm.

And as a result the female audience is more interested in male eye candy so therefore the guys that are often cast look like dudes one could put on covers of romance novels. The comic book industry and the gaming industry is the reverse; its male dominated and its male artists and male readers tend to prefer their women looking a certain way.

The female characters don't just look good, or hot. They look ridiculous. Physically impossible. There were visible nipples while the men still sported ken crotches. It was, and it is, way over the top.

Of course that doesn't mean there isn't going to be plenty of idealized male characters as well. The male superheroes are mostly idealized too.

Idealized to men. Not to women. Seriously. Remember that bit about how much this has been talked about already? Plenty women have weighed in on this.

You may not remember this, no one I know does, but there was a great strip in Heavy Metal back in the day called Gypsy. I've got the book behind me. It had overtly sexual, idealized female characters -- but the lead male was portrayed the same way. It's the Xena/Hercules loophole: if both genders are idealized, no one feels left out of the party. It's not really the idealized female bodies most female consumers have a problem with, it's the imbalance.

But the overt sexuality of women is on display far more than that of men. And the comic industry will provide male characters (like the original interpretation of Wolverine) who are less than handsome than it will female characters who are less than pretty. You now that as well as I do. So the point is male comic book fans don't object to the idealization of some male superhero characters because that fits how those characters have always been portrayed.

Ah, I get it. You're saying since you're a guy, it makes sense for you to think the way things are makes sense? Fair enough, but I'm a chick, so you're gonna sound ridiculous to me complaining about something as small as whether Wolverine looks good or not, when we still have female characters with tits bigger than Beast's head.

But it goes without saying, as sexist as this may sound, that male audiences tend to want to see Megan Fox-like babes play the main female roles, whether they be superheroes themselves or simply girlfriends. I know plenty of guys who hated Kirsten Dunst in the Spiderman films because they didn't find her as attractive as the character in the comic. I thought she was great because she is a legitimate actress but I may be in the minority.

Look, of course there are guys that feel that way. I'm just saying that to female comic book fans it sounds silly.

For decades many ladies found Mick Jagger attractive

Those ladies were what we call "wrong".

same can be said of Tupac whom I could never stand and never understood what girls saw in him.

Muscles.

But of course often times women can be attracted to a man’s charisma, his confidence, his celebrity, his style, etc. It doesn't always have to be about the looks. And to women's credit they are more open to the idea to looking past the surface than guys are. So I feel that Wolverine fits that category too.

Most definately. I mean, who were they going to think was the attractive guy in that book, a tool like Cyclops? LOL. You're right about that.

Which is why I never understood the casting of a dude who looks like a Chipendale dancer to play Wolverine. If done right the studio could have cast a guy who looked more like an average guy but who could have still stolen the hearts of all the ladies because of how rebellious and unpredictable and exciting his character is. But typical Hollywood stacked the deck and cast Jackman who really didn't have to do much work to wi the hearts of women other than show his face and body on the screen. And that's why some guys like myself called foul on that.

Look, this is the thing: I agree with you, but I just think the industry has much bigger issues to think about than this when it comes to how their characters look.

There’s a crash right now. It has been building for years too. Know why? Because the same product is still being put out. And 90% of it is still by and about white males….and I may be underestimating the numbers. Also the storytelling is stale and recycled regardless of the sex and race of the lead characters. And I gotta say the 90s didn’t do jack for the industry nor has the 2000s. There haven’t been any Watchmens, no Miller Daredevils, no Ronin, no Marv Wolfman and George Perez Teen Titans, no Claremont and Byrne X-Men, no Dark Knight Returns, no Alan Moore Swamp Thing, etc. (I’m limiting my conversations to DC and Marvel right now). The freshness of Crisis On Infinite Earths is long gone and in its palce are the millionth new cross-the-board crossovers which promise to shake up the DC or Marvel universe. Other than Neil Gaiman’s early 90s work with The Sandman what truly defining comics have come from the Big Two in the past two decades?

And as for female consumers there is a reason American female are just or more likely to buy manga than they are American mainstream comics. Manga, as sexist as they can be at times, provide plenty of female leads.

I agree with everything you said there.

Agree. And still at the Big Two there are still hardly any female writers and not many minority writers. So what has changed?

Not much. I agree.

Its still that way. And movies, after flirting with some diversity in the late 80s and 90s, are becoming that way again too. That’s in part because movies are increasingly dipping into the comic book pool to provide new films. Unfortunately 98% of the most established and well-know comic book characters are white males.

Nice chat. We don’t see eye-to-eye on everything but I respect where you’re coming from. Keep up the good fight in the industry.

You too.