Racism and double standard of Archie comic books

andrae09 said:
Chi don't confuse your preference with what's popular. Yes there are films where there are IR scenes and they do well but make no mistake if a film like Twilight was made a black heart throbe it wouldn't do well. If you want more proof take a look at people's 100 beautiful people. Black people make up 12 percent of the country . I dare you to find 6 black men in there let alone 12 black people.
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Dude, you have just as little evidence on your side that WM are dying to see WM on screen hook up wit all types of women. The vast majority of white males lean towards white women as a preference. So why then does Hollywood films only give us only certain types of IR ? Because most of the people in charge of the movie business are white males. That's all.

Fact is an IR between a white male and a black female is also vulnerable to the discomfort of moviegoing audiences. The black male/white female pairing is only more risky because it has rarely been done. So things aren't going to change until someone tries to go that route. Taking the stance that its not financially doable and accepting the status quo is why some folks don't ever try to bring about change. You got hypocritical black women screaming about BM/WW IR on one end and insecure white males on the other end who do their best to ensure that doesn't see the light of day and you accept that?

And fact is that directors can indeed fight a studio over casting. They might not always win but at least they can put up a struggle and sees what comes of it. The director for the Losers could at least cast a white female for that secondary female role and had her flirt with Columbus Short's character; at least TPTB wouldn't have to worry about any sex scenes. But the guy couldn't even do that? And do you think the studios preferred having Zoe Saldana (before she became more well known) being chosen as the female lead over a white actress? I'm very confident that wasn't the studio's preference. But the black director who had worked with Zoe in a previous movie almost assuredly went to bat for her. So yes I can blame him for not taking a shot at going IR with a black man and a white woman. The white director who did Independence day fought for Will Smith as the lead even when the studio kept saying no. That same director also fought a battle (and won) with a studio to keep in a scene in "The Day After Tomorrow" in which a black scientist, Adrian Lester, gave his white wife a quick kiss on the lips before he departed. You're telling me that some foreign white dude had more balls and guts to fight for these things than black male directors who should have more of an obligation to stand up to the studio system? That's pathetic.

And your argument for Twilight means very little because you can also say if the moviemakers made Bella black it would also lose most of its appeal to the girls who would support it. But just because casting black folks would be bad in some films doesn't mean it would bad to do so in other films.

And by the way since "The Losers" is a flop does that mean people were turned away because of the IR involving Zoe and that white actor?
 
chicity said:
The exact same thing happened on Andromeda, when the female fans went nuts begging for an IR relationship between Cobb's character and the Blonde female character. Not going to happen. Never. Given that answer, the female fans responded with thousands of pages of fanfic written the way *they* wanted to see the show -- with Beka & Tyr together.

.
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What they did to Tyr on that show was criminal. But the blame goes to the insecure lead of the series, Kevin Sorbo, who was probably pissed that Cobb was getting so much attention from female fans.
 
JamalSpunky said:
Dude, you have just as little evidence on your side that WM are dying to see WM on screen hook up wit all types of women. The vast majority of white males lean towards white women as a preference. So why then does Hollywood films only give us only certain types of IR ? Because most of the people in charge of the movie business are white males. That's all.

Fact is an IR between a white male and a black female is also vulnerable to the discomfort of moviegoing audiences. The black male/white female pairing is only more risky because it has rarely been done. So things aren't going to change until someone tries to go that route. Taking the stance that its not financially doable and accepting the status quo is why some folks don't ever try to bring about change. You got hypocritical black women screaming about BM/WW IR on one end and insecure white males on the other end who do their best to ensure that doesn't see the light of day and you accept that?

And fact is that directors can indeed fight a studio over casting. They might not always win but at least they can put up a struggle and sees what comes of it. The director for the Losers could at least cast a white female for that secondary female role and had her flirt with Columbus Short's character; at least TPTB wouldn't have to worry about any sex scenes. But the guy couldn't even do that? And do you think the studios preferred having Zoe Saldana (before she became more well known) being chosen as the female lead over a white actress? I'm very confident that wasn't the studio's preference. But the black director who had worked with Zoe in a previous movie almost assuredly went to bat for her. So yes I can blame him for not taking a shot at going IR with a black man and a white woman. The white director who did Independence day fought for Will Smith as the lead even when the studio kept saying no. That same director also fought a battle (and won) with a studio to keep in a scene in "The Day After Tomorrow" in which a black scientist, Adrian Lester, gave his white wife a quick kiss on the lips before he departed. You're telling me that some foreign white dude had more balls and guts to fight for these things than black male directors who should have more of an obligation to stand up to the studio system? That's pathetic.

And your argument for Twilight means very little because you can also say if the moviemakers made Bella black it would also lose most of its appeal to the girls who would support it. But just because casting black folks would be bad in some films doesn't mean it would bad to do so in other films.

And by the way since "The Losers" is a flop does that mean people were turned away because of the IR involving Zoe and that white actor?
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Seeing is believing id would like to see it done successfully without the major stereotypical over tones like Save the last Dance.
 
andrae09 said:
So you don't see a correlation between what a popular publication prints as beautiful and what people go to the theaters to see. If ww didn't agree with that list they'd be as riled up as bm when the media tries to call Precious beautiful.
Again do me a favor and list ten black hearthrobs from the movie world over the last ten years and to make this hard no Denzel and no Will Smith and i'd like to know which movie they were popular in go!
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Good Lord. I don't blame white women for this when black Hollywood shows no damn interest in creating black heartthrobs. Its bad enough Hollywood doesn't care about creating black leading men. But when black Hollywood is fine with it as well then there's a problem. Every male of every race (besides blacks) puts their best face forward in films by trying to create stars out of dashing men who look better than the vast majority of the population. But black guys seem perfectly fine to have themselves represented by Samuel L Jackson, Don Chealdle and Ice Cube. Where's the next generation's Billy Dee Williams? He's nowhere to be found because black people don't give a shit. Black women, who should care the most about this thing, only care that the black female on the screen is beautiful because they want counters to the notion that black women aren't desirable or attractive. So if that means if there is a romantic picture starring Chris Rock and Gabrielle Union, they will accept that even despite the fact that Chris looks like a turd. But if such a movie was to star Michael Ealy and a young Whoopi Goldberg many of them would balk at the thought of putting Whoopi in a lead role of a romantic film. They would want a "better" image, a better representation for black female beauty. And that's fine. Hell, many of them were upset about the movie "Precious" not because of its storyline, but because of the not-so-attractive women who were getting the lead roles. It would be nice if black males got similarly upset from time to time at the lack of new leading men to represent them. Unfortunately hardly any of do. And we have sat by as Hollywood studios never developed mainstream movies for guys like Blair Underwood and Taye Diggs (both of whom ww seem to love) and Michael Ealy or even alpha male types like Michael Jai White. We allowed Hollywood to allow the ever aging Denzel to be the one lone representation of a "desirable" black man and even that was a win for Hollywood because Denzel allowed himself to be portrayed as sexless in most films anyway.

So getting back to the point why should ww cross over and sound the horn for black male beauty when truly good-looking black men are rarely cast in any major roles? If the majority of white women on TV and film looked like Kathy Griffin would many of you even care about following their careers? We know that answer. You ask the lady to list ten black male heartthrobs whose movies were popular amongst mainstream audiences. Its an absurd request considering there probably hasn't even been five true black male heartthrobs given major roles in films over the past 20 or 30 years!
 
JamalSpunky said:
Dude, you have just as little evidence on your side that WM are dying to see WM on screen hook up wit all types of women. The vast majority of white males lean towards white women as a preference. So why then does Hollywood films only give us only certain types of IR ? Because most of the people in charge of the movie business are white males. That's all.

Fact is an IR between a white male and a black female is also vulnerable to the discomfort of moviegoing audiences. The black male/white female pairing is only more risky because it has rarely been done. So things aren't going to change until someone tries to go that route. Taking the stance that its not financially doable and accepting the status quo is why some folks don't ever try to bring about change. You got hypocritical black women screaming about BM/WW IR on one end and insecure white males on the other end who do their best to ensure that doesn't see the light of day and you accept that?

And fact is that directors can indeed fight a studio over casting. They might not always win but at least they can put up a struggle and sees what comes of it. The director for the Losers could at least cast a white female for that secondary female role and had her flirt with Columbus Short's character; at least TPTB wouldn't have to worry about any sex scenes. But the guy couldn't even do that? And do you think the studios preferred having Zoe Saldana (before she became more well known) being chosen as the female lead over a white actress? I'm very confident that wasn't the studio's preference. But the black director who had worked with Zoe in a previous movie almost assuredly went to bat for her. So yes I can blame him for not taking a shot at going IR with a black man and a white woman. The white director who did Independence day fought for Will Smith as the lead even when the studio kept saying no. That same director also fought a battle (and won) with a studio to keep in a scene in "The Day After Tomorrow" in which a black scientist, Adrian Lester, gave his white wife a quick kiss on the lips before he departed. You're telling me that some foreign white dude had more balls and guts to fight for these things than black male directors who should have more of an obligation to stand up to the studio system? That's pathetic.

And your argument for Twilight means very little because you can also say if the moviemakers made Bella black it would also lose most of its appeal to the girls who would support it. But just because casting black folks would be bad in some films doesn't mean it would bad to do so in other films.

And by the way since "The Losers" is a flop does that mean people were turned away because of the IR involving Zoe and that white actor?
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My only input on this one was that Zoe's character Aisha was black/Arabic in the original comics.

:::ducking out:::
 
UnChosen 1 said:
I seem to recall Denzel saying once he would like to do a romantic comedy. One of the few romantic comedy he did, got coupled with Whitney Houston in preachers wife. How come they did not couple him with Julia Roberts in Pelican brief?
Heart throb = WM. Let us not get it twisted.
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You must be new here and missed all my previous rants over the years

1)Denzel always had the clout to get a romantic comedy done. It was up to him.
2)He was the one who came up with the idea to get Whitney to do that remake with him. And in typical Denzel fashion there was no real romance or sexuality going on between his character and hers.
3)Both Julian and the director of "The Pelican Brief" wanted a kissing scene between the two characters and an indication of a blossoming romance. It was Denzel Washington, and you can research this yourself, who came out and objected to the idea. He was even more against it than author John Grisham (who was REALLY against it once Denzel had been cast.
4)Denzel's character in "Virtuosity" was supposed to have a romantic relationship with Kelly Lynch's character. Kelly is white and had no problem with it. The director had no problem with it. The studio had no big problem with it. Guess who did have a problem with it? Yep. Cowardly ass Denzel. According to Kelly Lynch herself Denzel told the director that he didn't want to offend white male moviegoers by having this relationship in the film. So the relationship was scrapped. Period. I've told that story at least a half dozen times on this site and hopefully I won't have to bring it up again because its sickens me how gutless we are.
5)Denzel also turned down a role opposite Michelle Pfeiffer in "Love Field" as well. Maybe he didn't like his part (understandable since it was underwritten). But maybe he was more worried about having to kiss a white woman on the screen because he didn't want to upset massa white man.
 
andrae09 said:
Again I have to back up UnChosen on this one. None of those guys listed could carry a romantic movie the way george clooney or brad pitt could. I guarantee you Brown Sugar did not gross anything close to a romantic movie with a white male lead. Stop acting like fantasy has nothing to do with wanting to believe you can have something similar to what you're seeing.
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Brad Pitt and Clooney for the most part don't do romantic films. And frankly until proven otherwise the key component to these types of movies appear to be the use of a white female lead since its white women who go to those flicks in droves.

By the way one day you guys should check out how very little money MOST Pitt and Clooney films make domestically. That's in part because they do take artistic risks.
 
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JamalSpunky said:
By the way one day you guys should check out how very little money MOST Pitt and Clooney films make domestically. That's in part because they do take artistic risks.
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I remember when the media (eager to bring peeps down a peg; see Tiger coverage) tried to paint "Leatherheads" as a flop until it was pointed out that none of Clooney's films do too well at the domestic box office.

"The Men Who Stare at Goats" was an unmitigated flop however, by any metric. :D
 
karmacoma. said:
My only input on this one was that Zoe's character Aisha was black/Arabic in the original comics.

:::ducking out:::
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Don't recall anything about her being part black. I just know the character grew up in Afghanistan and Pakistan and that she fought the Soviets while in the Afghanistan army. But maybe you're right.


Let me add to this ongoing debate that ten years ago or perhaps more there wasn't much gay presence in major film or on TV shows. One reason was because of the controversial nature of homosexuality amongst many Americans. It was risky to deal with gays, particularly gay couples, because studio and network execs thought there would be a public backlash and outcry. And there was. But people in Hollywood (admittedly many who are gay themselves) decided it was time to put gay people more in the spotlight either as supporting characters or as leads. Movies with gay characters as the focus have not done great business at the box office but nonetheless Hollywood, TV and independent films keep giving gay and bisexual characters bigger roles. And they are not shying away from showing gay love scenes either (just ask HBO). There is still a large portion of America that has a problem with this. Heck its been widely reported the past year that most African Americans have issues with this. But the folks in Hollywood who are going down this road have the stomach to keep moving forward instead of looking back. Gay coupling is no less controversial and threatening than interracial coupling but at this rate it will be far more common (at least in movies) to see a pairing between two homosexual men on our screens than it wil be to see a black male/white female pairing. And that's ridiculous. And, no, I'm not taking a shot at any of the folks who pushed gay stoylines and characters to the forefront. I wished those who advocate IR relationships, particularly between black men and white women, were as bold.
 
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JamalSpunky said:
You must be new here and missed all my previous rants over the years

1)Denzel always had the clout to get a romantic comedy done. It was up to him.
2)He was the one who came up with the idea to get Whitney to do that remake with him. And in typical Denzel fashion there was no real romance or sexuality going on between his character and hers.
3)Both Julian and the director of "The Pelican Brief" wanted a kissing scene between the two characters and an indication of a blossoming romance. It was Denzel Washington, and you can research this yourself, who came out and objected to the idea. He was even more against it than author John Grisham (who was REALLY against it once Denzel had been cast.
4)Denzel's character in "Virtuosity" was supposed to have a romantic relationship with Kelly Lynch's character. Kelly is white and had no problem with it. The director had no problem with it. The studio had no big problem with it. Guess who did have a problem with it? Yep. Cowardly ass Denzel. According to Kelly Lynch herself Denzel told the director that he didn't want to offend white male moviegoers by having this relationship in the film. So the relationship was scrapped. Period. I've told that story at least a half dozen times on this site and hopefully I won't have to bring it up again because its sickens me how gutless we are.
5)Denzel also turned down a role opposite Michelle Pfeiffer in "Love Field" as well. Maybe he didn't like his part (understandable since it was underwritten). But maybe he was more worried about having to kiss a white woman on the screen because he didn't want to upset massa white man.
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I heard some of these things before with him.

I always thought he felt he'd be offending BW.
 
To be fair to him I don't ever recall him publicly saying or being quoted as saying that he didn't want to offend black women. Doesn't mean he didn't say that of course.
 
JamalSpunky said:
To be fair to him I don't ever recall him publicly saying or being quoted as saying that he didn't want to offend black women. Doesn't mean he didn't say that of course.
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That was only my perception. I don't know where I got it from. It could've been rumors or fact. That just stuck in my head as to why he never does those particular roles.

shaft2k4 said:
I don't know if he states this directly. He does seem to be indicating this in a book called "Off the Record." I haven't read this book so I suppose this could be taken with a grain of salt.


http://www.exposay.com/denzel-turned-down-sex-scene-because-no-core-audience/v/7339/
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That's very interesting...
 
JamalSpunky said:
...ten years ago or perhaps more there wasn't much gay presence in major film or on TV shows. One reason was because of the controversial nature of homosexuality amongst many Americans. It was risky to deal with gays, particularly gay couples, because studio and network execs thought there would be a public backlash and outcry. And there was. But people in Hollywood (admittedly many who are gay themselves) decided it was time to put gay people more in the spotlight either as supporting characters or as leads. Movies with gay characters as the focus have not done great business at the box office but nonetheless Hollywood, TV and independent films keep giving gay and bisexual characters bigger roles. And they are not shying away from showing gay love scenes either (just ask HBO). There is still a large portion of America that has a problem with this. Heck its been widely reported the past year that most African Americans have issues with this. But the folks in Hollywood who are going down this road have the stomach to keep moving forward instead of looking back. Gay coupling is no less controversial and threatening than interracial coupling but at this rate it will be far more common (at least in movies) to see a pairing between two homosexual men on our screens than it wil be to see a black male/white female pairing. And that's ridiculous. And, no, I'm not taking a shot at any of the folks who pushed gay stoylines and characters to the forefront. I wished those who advocate IR relationships, particularly between black men and white women, were as bold.
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As SISKEL & EBERT would say...

TWO THUMBS UP on that, m8!!





An' don't you know I was thisclose to signing up with ARCHIE Comics as a staff artiste in 2007...'till Mellisa told me that, most likely, I'd have to return Stateside on a permanent basis to do that, sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....that put paid to THOSE plans.

Now I see that The Lord works in a mysterious way.

And now we see one reason *how* & *why*...
















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