The Dark King
Well-Known Member
Get some self esteem, if God didn't want me to question him then he should do a better job or eliminate free will.
why G-d punish the innocent and reward the evil ?
- Thread starter goodlove
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Get some self esteem, if God didn't want me to question him then he should do a better job or eliminate free will.
shellshock30
Member
IMO
"You see it all the time babies born with some type of illness or good parents unable to conceive children but people who abuse kids and kill them are popping them out like it is their fulltime job.
how about babies born in poverty and other born in wealth. why ?"
Well, the son of God wasn't born to a rich family. It was on purpose to show that Christ could grow up using his up bringing and environment to shape him to the adult he grew to be....later to discover the God he really was.
then you read in the bible where it states G-d knows the hairs on your head but is testing you to see what is in your heart . so if G-d is all knowing then why test you ?
Because he gave you free will....he knows you have the will to do wrong just as much the will to do good and live according to his will. He takes more delight when you choose to defy sin and do his will, than to force it upon you.
why do you see evil people get off and the victims suffer and the righteous forsaken ? example i have seen people report crimes against them and the police drag their feet and move with extreme antipathy. when the criminal get caught if ever they get off light and the victim has to expend excessive amount of time to recover...why is that the innocent suffer the righteous looked over, the victims get victimize over and over while the evil get rewared and spared punishment ?
Nobody suffered more than Christ did on the cross...nobody. The Lord says, that we should always forgive for vengeance would be his. You see, God see's the victims and feels their pain. He also hears as they call out to him. In turn he is slow to act but when he does...you will know it.
why should we believe in G-d ?
Because he loves and believes in you...even when you continue to reject him.
"You see it all the time babies born with some type of illness or good parents unable to conceive children but people who abuse kids and kill them are popping them out like it is their fulltime job.
how about babies born in poverty and other born in wealth. why ?"
Well, the son of God wasn't born to a rich family. It was on purpose to show that Christ could grow up using his up bringing and environment to shape him to the adult he grew to be....later to discover the God he really was.
then you read in the bible where it states G-d knows the hairs on your head but is testing you to see what is in your heart . so if G-d is all knowing then why test you ?
Because he gave you free will....he knows you have the will to do wrong just as much the will to do good and live according to his will. He takes more delight when you choose to defy sin and do his will, than to force it upon you.
why do you see evil people get off and the victims suffer and the righteous forsaken ? example i have seen people report crimes against them and the police drag their feet and move with extreme antipathy. when the criminal get caught if ever they get off light and the victim has to expend excessive amount of time to recover...why is that the innocent suffer the righteous looked over, the victims get victimize over and over while the evil get rewared and spared punishment ?
Nobody suffered more than Christ did on the cross...nobody. The Lord says, that we should always forgive for vengeance would be his. You see, God see's the victims and feels their pain. He also hears as they call out to him. In turn he is slow to act but when he does...you will know it.
why should we believe in G-d ?
Because he loves and believes in you...even when you continue to reject him.
donsboy
Member
I don't know about anybodys mom but mine but if I asked her where she was going or when she was coming back I always heard stay out of grown folks business. That means show respect for grown ups. Who is the ultimate grown up God. Do you answer to your children? I don't and don't intend to start. Why should the parent to everyone answer to his children?
The parental attitude of 'I'm your parent and I'm above reproach and not to be questioned', would never fly in my family, nor would I want it to. Perhaps other people's children don't question the origins of the universe and every damn thing in it like mine do, but telling them 'it's none of your business' just wouldn't be productive. I want them to be free-thinkers, and as such I answer every question they ask, honestly.
As far as answering to someone, I don't answer to anyone but me, but I do listen and respect the opinions of my children. There have been occasions where they are right and I'm wrong, and I acknowledge those instances. I raised my kids to respect me if I am worthy of that respect, but if I'm not acting in a manner befitting respect, I expect them to straighten me out, just as I would do for them. I have always told them to question everyone, take no one's word for anything, and that includes me. I think God expects you to do the same, question and figure it out for yourself. I have never personally questioned God in my life, nor do I think it likely I will, however I don't think He has a problem with that. He wants people to know Him and make an informed decision, why would it bother Him to be questioned.
Cyrus
New Member
First, don, you are right -- you also never said people who think the bible doesn't have the answers, necessarily never read the bible. I was reading in. My bad.
Who are we to question the sovereign of the universe? Ones who were made in His image, that's who. See, I don't think God looks like us -- I doubt God would even have a physical image. It is our free will, our sovereignty of at least our own heart and mind, that make us like God.
Where were we when he did amazing things we can't even imagine? Well, why do we care about any of that, exactly? It concerns us, how? See, I'm actually fine with someone/thing that doesn't need me just ignoring me. But if you're talking to me? Well, 'fraid I'm going to be sharing my opinion. Your being the divine creator of everything, or no.
See, this is what I mean about a lot of the bible making God sound like an asshole -- and again, no offense meant to anybody, and really sincere apologies and all that -- but really, you're the all-powerful-God-of-everything, and you're afraid of my opinion? Hell, my mom let me speak my mind and question her when I was like 6 or 7, for Christ's sake. I'd think the ultimate divine being should not only hear me out, but in the end explain to me exactly why I was wrong in the first place.
And that's a key thing when it comes to the Book of Job.
Why did God allow the devil to test Job? His most faithful and loyal servant, who he knew would never deny him. He knew he wouldn't. So, for a wager -- to prove something to the most evil being in existence -- he not only tortured the guy, but he killed everyone he loved.
And see, that's a part that doesn't get quite enough focus, in my opinion. Donsboy, you love your mom, right? So, if we kill her, can we just replace her later with a mom who is ten times better, and it would be all good?
It doesn't work like that with human beings.
I think the bible was written, and has been translated quite a bit, by humans.
That doesn't mean there is no God. But it might mean the bible can't answer everything for everyone.
Who are we to question the sovereign of the universe? Ones who were made in His image, that's who. See, I don't think God looks like us -- I doubt God would even have a physical image. It is our free will, our sovereignty of at least our own heart and mind, that make us like God.
Where were we when he did amazing things we can't even imagine? Well, why do we care about any of that, exactly? It concerns us, how? See, I'm actually fine with someone/thing that doesn't need me just ignoring me. But if you're talking to me? Well, 'fraid I'm going to be sharing my opinion. Your being the divine creator of everything, or no.
See, this is what I mean about a lot of the bible making God sound like an asshole -- and again, no offense meant to anybody, and really sincere apologies and all that -- but really, you're the all-powerful-God-of-everything, and you're afraid of my opinion? Hell, my mom let me speak my mind and question her when I was like 6 or 7, for Christ's sake. I'd think the ultimate divine being should not only hear me out, but in the end explain to me exactly why I was wrong in the first place.
And that's a key thing when it comes to the Book of Job.
Why did God allow the devil to test Job? His most faithful and loyal servant, who he knew would never deny him. He knew he wouldn't. So, for a wager -- to prove something to the most evil being in existence -- he not only tortured the guy, but he killed everyone he loved.
And see, that's a part that doesn't get quite enough focus, in my opinion. Donsboy, you love your mom, right? So, if we kill her, can we just replace her later with a mom who is ten times better, and it would be all good?
It doesn't work like that with human beings.
I think the bible was written, and has been translated quite a bit, by humans.
That doesn't mean there is no God. But it might mean the bible can't answer everything for everyone.
donsboy
Member
the devil says no one will serve God loyally. God allows him time to prove his claim. He gave us the ability to choose for ourselves. Why should we serve god? He made us. He has given us everything. He has never done anything bad to us. All the problems in our world are of our own making. If Adam doesn't eat the fruit we have no problems. Satan. Is destroyed and life goes on as God intended. Adam forsook his creator for a piece of fruit. god is not responsible for Adams bad decision. God had the right to destroy his disobedient thieving son and all his prospective children. Whaat did god do he set in motion redemption for us. He loves us. The least we can do is be loyal children and be obedient because his laws are for our good.
The Dark King
Well-Known Member
Do you have any clue how ridiculous this sounds? The old testament is filled with stories of how God punished people mercilessly. Making humanity responsible for the "mistake" of one person is cruel fam. To "give" us free will only to wait for us to make mistakes so that he can punish us for eternity sounds sadistic.
donsboy
Member
you got it twisted bro. God created a perfect man with free will. When he disobeyed he became imperfect. We as his children inherited his imperfection. God is not holding Adams mistake against us. He actually redeemed us with the blood of Christ. god is still showing love for us. He wants us to come to know him and love him. He has promised eternal life in paradise with no suffering and no death to those who choose to accept his right tto decide as our creator what's best for us. If we choose to reject his direction ok fine but be prepared for the consequences. He is the master of the universe and it is ultimately up to him as to wh lives in his world.
The Dark King
Well-Known Member
Sorry all I hear is blah blah blah obedience blah blah blah you'll be rewarded after you've given your life to benefit the wealthy who get to be happy now and in "the next life".
Anyone who requires you to submit to them in order to love you and accept you doesn't love you or accept you. I don't have to submit to the will my family or friends but they love me. So I would hope the master of the universe's capacity to love would be far greater than that of a puny human.
I'm not trying to bash your belief and I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I did eight years of catholic school and seven years of hardcore theology so I'm very aware of what you're saying is in the bible but it doesn't make sense. All I see when I read the bible is a tool to subject the masses to the will of the rich. You should read the communist manifesto it might change your perspective.
Anten7
New Member
sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium Suum Unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non pereat sed habeat vitam aeternam
- Iohnnes III:XVI
DJ_1985
New Member
It's simple: we shouldn't believe in "God". I don't think I've ever come across a more easily answerable question.
Cyrus, I just want to say (write), that I'm digging all that you've had to say(write) in this thread. I have to admit, I'm lazy and I can't be bothered getting into conversations about God, the bible and all things religious. I'm a Christian, (as you know) and so much of what you've said,IMO, is just spot on.
DJ_1985
New Member
I totally agree, especially with the part about humans making up things to fill in the blanks. There's a great biography on king David by Steven McKenzie and he talks about how the JFK assassination was only thirty-five years ago, was caught on film, and had plenty of witnesses. And yet, to this day nobody knows exactly what happened. His point: if we have trouble figuring out things that happened in our own time, with all of our technology and sophistication, how can we not be critical of the words of primitive writers who lived thousands of years ago?
DJ_1985
New Member
Exactly. This is where Christians pretty much hang themselves. If the Bible is the word of "God" then it must be perfect since "God" is supposedly an infallible being. That means all an atheist has to do is find one inconsistency in the Bible and everything else that the Christian argues is irrelevant. You really make it to easy for us.
http://www.freethoughtdebater.com/tenbiblecontradictions.htm
GFunk
Well-Known Member
So many have been found. :smt005:smt005:smt005:smt005:smt005
The Dark King
Well-Known Member
I think I have to be totally clear. I believe in God just not the way its been presented to me. People are way to self important. We actually believe we're the most important beings on the planet just because we can build a few places of worship and a starbucks. If there's any religion that's close to what I believe in its buddahism. There aren't holy texts trying to control my life in that one and last I checked no one has ever died in the name of the Buddah.
Me too Andrae,
I've seen and experienced too many spiritual things, both before I was a Christian, and since I've become one, not to believe.
I don't see God in the same way that the majority of Christians see Him, and some of my views make other Christians go.......:smt119.......hahahaha.
Cyrus
New Member
Cyrus, I just want to say (write), that I'm digging all that you've had to say(write) in this thread. I have to admit, I'm lazy and I can't be bothered getting into conversations about God, the bible and all things religious. I'm a Christian, (as you know) and so much of what you've said,IMO, is just spot on.
Thanks, Beloved. Good to know I seem to be making some kind of sense.
You know, one of the more interesting aspects of spiritual belief that I've seen ... I think there's something about it where most people somehow are not able to be very flexible at all, in their conceptualization or understanding of divinity. I mean, you'd expect that from people whose idea and understanding works for them -- they are comforted/guided in their existence by how they conceive of a higher power.
It's strange to me that so many people seem to insist on definitions that make no sense to them ... what I mean is, I've had friends who were raised in strict fundamentalist homes, and as a result for the rest of their adult lives they will argue strongly about how there can be no God because the concept they were initially and primarily exposed to was not true.
Basically, the leap seems to be, "Because some have worshipped a false deity, there can be no sort of real deity." I guess it's a natural enough conclusion to leap to, but without much more information it's a flawed conclusion to leap to, from only the stated premise.
In the end tho, I guess it's not really a matter of logic at all, where ever you happen to end up in belief. I was raised in a pretty religious family, and though the way I believe is pretty different from the rest of my family, I'm still definitely not an atheist. Because I've experienced too much to believe there is nothing greater than Man in the universe, and all life really is just a sort of cosmic accident...
I think perhaps we are meant to seek/create the meaning/purpose of our own existence, and that this is meant to be our spiritual work -- I mean, distinct from simply obeying a long list of draconian rules, I'd think our self-awareness would be a clue that we are meant as more active partners than that.
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DJ_1985
New Member
Yeah, I remember you talking about this in some of your previous posts.
There actually seems to be a conflict about our status. For example, people like donsboy believe that we're "specs of dust on a small planet", and at the same time they seem to believe that we're the center of the universe. -sigh-
Buddhism has been highly praised by a lot of my non-religious friends but I honestly don't know much about it.