Steve Nash Double Swirling Gone Wrong!!

[orejon4]

so why do people on this forum keep insisting on somebody being this "race" or that "race" then like they did with the girl on this thread?


"black" American, "black", "white" etc are just BS terms


your post still does not answer why people engage in this silly so and so is of a "this race" thing that people engage in all the time


whats the big deal if George Bush is "black" or the girl in this thread is "not black"?

Well, for starters, this is a race-driven forum. Note the title: White Women Black Men.com. That presupposes a group of participants with clear perceptions of race from the onset, because they have both a definite notion of what 'race' they are attracted to in a partner as well as what 'race' they are a part of. The awareness of that and the need to have a specific venue to foster that attraction as well as an understanding of the difficulties such relationships pose in Western societies suggests that you are more likely than not to encounter people here for whom matters of race are important, and perhaps central, to much of their lives.

 

[Iykeg]

It's not about wasting time, it's simply about acknowledging the reality in which one must operate, maneuver and survive. In much of the European-dominated world (read: all of it), race and racial categorization of people has been an essential component to maintaining social control for the purpose of economic exploitation. Failure to understand the role race plays in this society (and by extension, the rest of the world, since the US and Western European play a large role in the affairs of the rest of the world) will lead to incorrect analysis of any given social situation.

The drive in this society to correctly identify the genealogy of a person is driven on the white side by a desire for racial purity (itself a non-existent concept) and on the black side by an awareness of the many members of our community who have had to abandon their families if they were sufficiently pale in order to have a chance at economic advancement.

This is where I disagree with you completely

racial obsession is actually one of the biggest things (if not the biggest by far) that actually debilitate a person and a community. Its the most destructive force I have seen in my life


Its even worse when those who claim to be affected by it convince themselves that somehow, insisting on a white supremacist ideology is the way to go


nobody in America today needs to abandon their family to achieve anything they want in life

racializing every issue is the key to an abyss best avoided

 

[orejon4]

Further, in a mono-racial society that devalues non-white children, the psychological health and well-being of biracial children (and later adults) are critical challenges if you are, like me, the parent of a biracial (and bi-cultural) child. The need to identify children who are black even if they don't look like it as such is also about avoiding children living in shame of a portion of their ancestry because of the hostility of the dominant society toward it, or feeling as if they have to hide a segment of who they are.

 

[Iykeg]

Well, for starters, this is a race-driven forum. Note the title: White Women Black Men.com. That presupposes a group of participants with clear perceptions of race from the onset, because they have both a definite notion of what 'race' they are attracted to in a partner as well as what 'race' they are a part of. The awareness of that and the need to have a specific venue to foster that attraction as well as an understanding of the difficulties such relationships pose in Western societies suggests that you are more likely than not to encounter people here for whom matters of race are important, and perhaps central, to much of their lives.

A person could be attracted to fair qualities of a woman with out it being about "race" for example

You could be attracted to fair skin and it does not have anything to do with perceptions of race even though the vast majority of people with that skin colour could be classified as a certain "race"

 

[Iykeg]

Further, in a mono-racial society that devalues non-white children, the psychological health and well-being of biracial children (and later adults) are critical challenges if you are, like me, the parent of a biracial (and bi-cultural) child. The need to identify children who are black even if they don't look like it as such is also about avoiding children living in shame of a portion of their ancestry because of the hostility of the dominant society toward it, or feeling as if they have to hide a segment of who they are.

if the rest of society do not percieve you that way, then the issue is mute. Hence if society percieves them as white, then there should be no issues in them identifying that way if they choose to

 

[orejon4]

This is where I disagree with you completely

racial obsession is actually one of the biggest things (if not the biggest by far) that actually debilitate a person and a community. Its the most destructive force I have seen in my life


Its even worse when those who claim to be affected by it convince themselves that somehow, insisting on a white supremacist ideology is the way to go


nobody in America today needs to abandon their family to achieve anything they want in life

racializing every issue is the key to an abyss best avoided

For starters, this obsession didn't begin today, it began over 400 years ago. "Passing" is not nearly the phenomenon now that it was up until the Civil Rights Era. I personally don't believe that you should obsess over race and racism, but it's important to acknowledge its existence. Otherwise, you will have no ability to bear the burden of dealing with the many instances of casual random racism to which non-whites are subjected in this society. That is not to say that racism is the cause of every single problem in the US, but racism is present to a greater or lesser degree.

EVERY single facet of US life is and has been racialized since the nation's founding as an English colony. Sexuality, sport, crime, social pathology, entertainment, housing patterns, economics and much much more, have a racial tint to them. First in the dominant/majority culture and subsequently (because no racial minority exists in a vacuum free of majority influence) in minority culture. The racialization of the US is also not only a black/white dichotomy, it is implicit in US fear of a growing Latino population, views about the rise of China and more.

I agree that people should be free to be individuals without being pigeonholed into racial categories, yet that utopia has not yet been realized. It is a goal we should continue to strive toward, but I do not believe that progress is made by ignoring the injustices of the past or pretending that those of the present don't exist. It is by making a conscious effort to break down those barriers (not ignore them) that we can move forward.

 

[Iykeg]

For starters, this obsession didn't begin today, it began over 400 years ago. "Passing" is not nearly the phenomenon now that it was up until the Civil Rights Era. I personally don't believe that you should obsess over race and racism, but it's important to acknowledge its existence. Otherwise, you will have no ability to bear the burden of dealing with the many instances of casual random racism to which non-whites are subjected in this society. That is not to say that racism is the cause of every single problem in the US, but racism is present to a greater or lesser degree.

EVERY single facet of US life is and has been racialized since the nation's founding as an English colony. Sexuality, sport, crime, social pathology, entertainment, housing patterns, economics and much much more, have a racial tint to them. First in the dominant/majority culture and subsequently (because no racial minority exists in a vacuum free of majority influence) in minority culture. The racialization of the US is also not only a black/white dichotomy, it is implicit in US fear of a growing Latino population, views about the rise of China and more.

I agree that people should be free to be individuals without being pigeonholed into racial categories, yet that utopia has not yet been realized. It is a goal we should continue to strive toward, but I do not believe that progress is made by ignoring the injustices of the past or pretending that those of the present don't exist. It is by making a conscious effort to break down those barriers (not ignore them) that we can move forward.

neither is progress achieved by insisting that so and so is this race based on a white supremacist theory

 

[orejon4]

A person could be attracted to fair qualities of a woman with out it being about "race" for example

You could be attracted to fair skin and it does not have anything to do with perceptions of race even though the vast majority of people with that skin colour could be classified as a certain "race"

Agreed. Attraction takes many forms. However, in the context of this forum, it is CLEARLY about the specific attraction between men of sub-Saharan African ancestry (whether proximate or distant) and women of European ancestry, not simply a chance difference in skin shades. That specific attraction carries with it, because of the history of European conquest of Africa and the slave trade, a particular set of taboos and desires, both conscious and sub-conscious. This isn't "randomly-darker-skinned-men-after-women-who-happen-to-be-paler-than-them.com"

The people here know that and that's why they have taken their specific desires to this forum rather than eHarmony.

 

[orejon4]

neither is progress achieved by insisting that so and so is this race based on a white supremacist theory

True. And I don't believe for a minute that anyone on here actually cares what race any of the people in question are. It is simply that people in interracial relationships or who are the product of them generally have a heightened awareness of the various phenotypes that biracial or multiracial people can take. No one on here has, in my experience on the forum, EVER expressed a belief that the one-drop rule is correct or that it should be adhered to, we are simply acknowledging who would be considered as 'black' according to that rule, and as such, in this society. The reason I said I thought she was black and looked so to me is because my family is the product of a lot of fair-skinned black people, some dark-skinned people and Caribbean people (with their own acute creole and race consciousness) intermarrying and having children. As such I have lots of relatives with hues ranging from West African blue-black to yellow with a wide range of features. So I am used to identifying people in my family as black because our ancestors and we are called black and we have a common genetic relationship even if some of us look like Mariah or Vanessa or Smokey.

 

[Iykeg]

Agreed. Attraction takes many forms. However, in the context of this forum, it is CLEARLY about the specific attraction between men of sub-Saharan African ancestry (whether proximate or distant) and women of European ancestry, not simply a chance difference in skin shades. That specific attraction carries with it, because of the history of European conquest of Africa and the slave trade, a particular set of taboos and desires, both conscious and sub-conscious. This isn't "randomly-darker-skinned-men-after-women-who-happen-to-be-paler-than-them.com"

The people here know that and that's why they have taken their specific desires to this forum rather than eHarmony.

So you are saying it is not primarily attraction to features? :smt012

Thats what I always primarily thought it was


I dont consider a "white" woman a trophy or breaching a taboo and even if "white" and "black" people have historically been classified as one race or different races, it has no bearing whatsoever on my attraction to certain features on women.

Actually to me she would be just a beautiful woman at the end of the day, not a beautiful "white" woman when I think of her


I dont consider her as being a different "race" from me as per say what "race" is understood to be in the west

So am I the only one that way

 

[Iykeg]

True. And I don't believe for a minute that anyone on here actually cares what race any of the people in question are. It is simply that people in interracial relationships or who are the product of them generally have a heightened awareness of the various phenotypes that biracial or multiracial people can take. No one on here has, in my experience on the forum, EVER expressed a belief that the one-drop rule is correct or that it should be adhered to, we are simply acknowledging who would be considered as 'black' according to that rule, and as such, in this society. The reason I said I thought she was black and looked so to me is because my family is the product of a lot of fair-skinned black people, some dark-skinned people and Caribbean people (with their own acute creole and race consciousness) intermarrying and having children. As such I have lots of relatives with hues ranging from West African blue-black to yellow with a wide range of features. So I am used to identifying people in my family as black because our ancestors and we are called black and we have a common genetic relationship even if some of us look like Mariah or Vanessa or Smokey.

and you also have a common genetic connection to whites and whites in Europe. In some cases the majority of the ancestry comes from there and if you look like that then there should absolutely be no issues in classifying yourself that way ie "white"


unless you think there is an inherent contaminant in you or people who you consider "black", i dont see why it should be an issue at all

 

[Iykeg]

I feel as much automatic connection to say you or any body else labelled black as you or that person feels towards white people in America and Europeans with whom you have the same blood flowing in your veins

Your ancestry comes from there and the same blood connection is there


So i dont see why a Pueto Rican for example labelling himself as white even with ancestry from various places is an issue at all


thats what I dont get

 

[orejon4]

So you are saying it is not primarily attraction to features? :smt012

Thats what I always primarily thought it was


I dont consider a "white" woman a trophy or breaching a taboo and even if "white" and "black" people have historically been classified as one race or different races, it has no bearing whatsoever on my attraction to certain features on women.

Actually to me she would be just a beautiful woman at the end of the day, not a beautiful "white" woman when I think of her


I dont consider her as being a different "race" from me as per say what "race" is understood to be in the west

So am I the only one that way

I don't mean that to say that people are doing this as a fetish. What I mean is that people are cognizant of all the historical baggage that this sort of relationship entails. As such, they are aware of all the taboos against it, the specific hostility that such a relationship engenders in society and are also aware of many particularities about the issue of race in this society.

I tend to be attracted to women my complexion or lighter and I also was raised in a multiracial setting, so I find myself to be comfortable with whites and date accordingly. However, this forum is designed to specifically address the needs of white women and black men, period. Features, including skin, are implicit in that attraction between the two groups.

 

[orejon4]

and you also have a common genetic connection to whites and whites in Europe. In some cases the majority of the ancestry comes from there and if you look like that then there should absolutely be no issues in classifying yourself that way ie "white"


unless you think there is an inherent contaminant in you or people who you consider "black", i dont see why it should be an issue at all

Well, historically whites have viewed us a contaminant and have historically barred us from relating to them as relatives/friends/etc until recently. My great-grandmother's father was the product of a slave rape, and the master did not call my great-great-grandfather 'son'. As a result, blacks in this country have been historically denied those relationships and as the saying goes "I don't want anyone that don't want me [sic]." So, as a result, I do not feel that I can arbitrarily say I am 'white'. Were the history of this society not in question, perhaps I wouldn't feel that way. It's an open question.

 

[Iykeg]

Well, historically whites have viewed us a contaminant and have historically barred us from relating to them as relatives/friends/etc until recently. My great-grandmother's father was the product of a slave rape, and the master did not call my great-great-grandfather 'son'. As a result, blacks in this country have been historically denied those relationships and as the saying goes "I don't want anyone that don't want me [sic]." So, as a result, I do not feel that I can arbitrarily say I am 'white'. Were the history of this society not in question, perhaps I wouldn't feel that way. It's an open question.

So if somebody sees you as a contaminant, you now view yourself that way?

Thats incredible


America is not the only place with a rigid history in castes. During my great grand fathers time, a section of our population were outcasts you cant mix with not to talk of marrying. People would rather spit on them than marry them. They were considered contaminats. Today their offsprings marry into regular society and are not seen as such anymore with the new generation


It would be bizzare for their descendants to consider themselves contaminats just because their ancestors were considered that way for thousands of years

 

[Iykeg]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFsHq90H70k&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]



You guys should check this video out

Is one of the girls wrong for how she identifies? Both are half black (Jamaican father)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFsHq90H70k&feature=related


link above

 

[orejon4]

So if somebody sees you as a contaminant, you now view yourself that way?

Thats incredible


America is not the only place with a rigid history in castes. During my great grand fathers time, a section of our population were outcasts you cant mix with not to talk of marrying. People would rather spit on them than marry them. They were considered contaminats. Today their offsprings marry into regular society and are not seen as such anymore with the new generation


It would be bizzare for their descendants to consider themselves contaminats just because their ancestors were considered that way for thousands of years

So if somebody sees you as a contaminant, you now view yourself that way?

No, not at all. However, it's probably not good for one's psyche to constantly pursue a relationship with a person or group that repeatedly rejects you. As such, I don't pursue it. If you've seen my pics, you know I'm mildly pale. I am clear that I am not 100% sub-Saharan African, and I am well aware of the white share of my family's gene pool, but apart from historical curiosity that portion of my heritage has little contemporary relevance. The only relevant aspect of my identity is, for the purposes of this conversation, my blackness, however diluted it may be. I am far more connected to the various nationalities within my family than I am with any latent "whiteness" I may possess.

 

[orejon4]

[YOUTUBE]HFsHq90H70k&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]



You guys should check this video out

Is one of the girls wrong for how she identifies? Both are half black (Jamaican father)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFsHq90H70k&feature=related


link above

She's not wrong at all. Identity is subjective anyway. Doesn't change her genetic makeup one bit. She's free to say she's from Mars if she chooses. The only reason this sort of thing evoked outcry in the past was because black people resented being 'abandoned' by children who could pass after they had been raised and nurtured by black parents and the black community. Other than noting her genealogy, I don't think anyone cares one way or the other.

 

[Iykeg]

No, not at all. However, it's probably not good for one's psyche to constantly pursue a relationship with a person or group that repeatedly rejects you. As such, I don't pursue it. If you've seen my pics, you know I'm mildly pale. I am clear that I am not 100% sub-Saharan African, and I am well aware of the white share of my family's gene pool, but apart from historical curiosity that portion of my heritage has little contemporary relevance. The only relevant aspect of my identity is, for the purposes of this conversation, my blackness, however diluted it may be. I am far more connected to the various nationalities within my family than I am with any latent "whiteness" I may possess.

Maybe because you have not spent a lifetime telling yourself that any drop of your European ancestry is essential to who you are neither have you spent a lifetime reminding yourself that the average African ethnic group would see you and know you are not part of them in anyway (even though they would)

 

[orejon4]

I don't expect Africans to welcome me as one of their own. They will clearly tell that I am sub-Saharan African in origin, but beyond that is anyone's guess. The truth is that, as a person of African descent from the Diaspora, I don't belong anywhere. We are a historical aberration, unique in the world in that we have no real link to our heritage in any way beyond trace 'Africanisms' that have survived in Latin America, the Caribbean and the U.S. Every other group of blacks on the planet is part of a linear continuous heritage, with ethnically distinct names, cultural practices and the like. We have had the practices of others imposed on us and perhaps for that reason, these issues are particularly important to us.