Is America losing something important?

[naija4real]

America may be on the descent economically, politically and socially, I suspect. Could this be because of time preference and the immediate gratification syndrome that now pervades social life and has spilled over into every sphere of the American human life and has contaminated choices people make?

Things have becomes so very easy. Isn't it? Instant coffee, eh? Drive-by fast food, eh? And the immediate pleasure of face lifts, botox treatments and the value of aesthetics over the value of genuine effort that takes people through the grind to such as extent that they can have that pleasure after the sigh of relief. Borrowing to meet instant gratification may have made instants possible.

Has this all got to do with how we value our time? Does delaying how we consume help build wealth? For example does delaying having children (something most can relate to) help build more wealth for the kids you eventually decide to have ? Does the delay help accumulate experience that you use to make the right choices? Does the delay help accumulate wealth that you create that can help take care of needs that would need to be met?

Still does time preference capture the whole gamut of experiences that enable people acquire the attitudes that makes one civilized?

I have been watching debates on debt ceiling on many American networks, and something tells me something is missing. I watched Anderson Cooper interview three people. One a professor quite competent in public policy, another fella, a partisan democrat and a talk show host, a republican lady that was good with words.

These folks all had different opinions. But two of the opinions seemed to somehow align. Still I was not comfortable because there were certain looks on their faces. The professor wore a look that seemed he was shouting, " this is crazy, am I in the wrong country." The partisan democrat face seemed to be shouting, " our ridiculous brothers in the republican party are at it again." And the lady republican seemed to be shouting, " we will live with our reality when we get there, you guys are scare mongers, America is an exceptional country."

Still something did not seem right. I checked out the education of the people. The least scared was the woman with the least education who dropped out of school and she made it to become the talk show host. Does education colour one's sights? Is education no longer valuable, or does it not serve purpose in modern society? Why do we have education at all?

Is this another aspect of time preference that is manifesting in modern day America? Is America losing something that it can't articulate so forcefully that is more important than free market ideology? Could this be time preference?

 

[Mikey]

America may be on the descent economically, politically and socially, I suspect. Could this be because of time preference and the immediate gratification syndrome that now pervades social life and has spilled over into every sphere of the American human life and has contaminated choices people make?

Things have becomes so very easy. Isn't it? Instant coffee, eh? Drive-by fast food, eh? And the immediate pleasure of face lifts, botox treatments and the value of aesthetics over the value of genuine effort that takes people through the grind to such as extent that they can have that pleasure after the sigh of relief. Borrowing to meet instant gratification may have made instants possible.

Has this all got to do with how we value our time? Does delaying how we consume help build wealth? For example does delaying having children (something most can relate to) help build more wealth for the kids you eventually decide to have ? Does the delay help accumulate experience that you use to make the right choices? Does the delay help accumulate wealth that you create that can help take care of needs that would need to be met?

Still does time preference capture the whole gamut of experiences that enable people acquire the attitudes that makes one civilized?

I have been watching debates on debt ceiling on many American networks, and something tells me something is missing. I watched Anderson Cooper interview three people. One a professor quite competent in public policy, another fella, a partisan democrat and a talk show host, a republican lady that was good with words.

These folks all had different opinions. But two of the opinions seemed to somehow align. Still I was not comfortable because there were certain looks on their faces. The professor wore a look that seemed he was shouting, " this is crazy, am I in the wrong country." The partisan democrat face seemed to be shouting, " our ridiculous brothers in the republican party are at it again." And the lady republican seemed to be shouting, " we will live with our reality when we get there, you guys are scare mongers, America is an exceptional country."

Still something did not seem right. I checked out the education of the people. The least scared was the woman with the least education who dropped out of school and she made it to become the talk show host. Does education colour one's sights? Is education no longer valuable, or does it not serve purpose in modern society? Why do we have education at all?

Is this another aspect of time preference that is manifesting in modern day America? Is America losing something that it can't articulate so forcefully that is more important than free market ideology? Could this be time preference?

Awesome post, Najia! This is a thread that I hope every single person on the forum (especially one that is American) can reply into. Nobody should ignore this. Anyways, I'm gonna quote your paragraphs and respond to each one since that's the most efficient way for me to process and comprehend your post.

America may be on the descent economically, politically and socially, I suspect. Could this be because of time preference and the immediate gratification syndrome that now pervades social life and has spilled over into every sphere of the American human life and has contaminated choices people make?

I don't quite understand why it is, but I would say that there are several reasons for why this is. If I try to explain it all, it would be a huge, lengthy post so I'll just post some things which I believe that contribute to it including:

• The money
• Perceptions of American women (http://www.city-data.com/forum/rela...rican-men-preferring-european-women-over.html)
• Obesity
• Economic hardship
• Entitlement
• Issues with our infrastructure
• Socialization through the Internet and not in person
• Obama's healthcare reform he passed
• Resentment from white men and black women due to the increasing prevalence of interracial relationships, including the one we represent.
• Political and ideological in-fighting
• Bias in America's judicial system
• Problems within the workforce experience in America

Things have becomes so very easy. Isn't it? Instant coffee, eh? Drive-by fast food, eh? And the immediate pleasure of face lifts, botox treatments and the value of aesthetics over the value of genuine effort that takes people through the grind to such as extent that they can have that pleasure after the sigh of relief. Borrowing to meet instant gratification may have made instants possible.

True. This is what George Bush had done throughout his tenure as President. We waged two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Abu Ghraib occured in 2003, damaging our country's image and respect across the world. This is why our country and it's people are in the position that they find themselves in. Refer to my post here during President Bush's 2008 speech and you'll see why.

http://www.whitewomenblackmen.com/forum/showpost.php?p=538912&postcount=111

Has this all got to do with how we value our time? Does delaying how we consume help build wealth? For example does delaying having children (something most can relate to) help build more wealth for the kids you eventually decide to have ? Does the delay help accumulate experience that you use to make the right choices? Does the delay help accumulate wealth that you create that can help take care of needs that would need to be met?

Still does time preference capture the whole gamut of experiences that enable people acquire the attitudes that makes one civilized?

I don't necessarily think so. Our generation is burdened with credit card debt and college debt. As a result, this affects our ability to own a house, buy a vehicle (ideally an electric car so we are not relying on foreign oil from Saudi Arabia) and ultimately, marriage/relationships with a white woman. You also have to remember that the recession is global, not just America, so perhaps the entire world is on a descent downward.

I have been watching debates on debt ceiling on many American networks, and something tells me something is missing. I watched Anderson Cooper interview three people. One a professor quite competent in public policy, another fella, a partisan democrat and a talk show host, a republican lady that was good with words.

The debate about the debt ceiling is no longer centered around the well-being of Americans. This is more about political ideology and the desire for Republicans to regain control of this country by November 2012. Mitch McConnell said "A real solution to U.S. fiscal problems isn't possible as long as President Barack Obama remains in office, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said Tuesday, heightening the rhetoric surrounding the debt-ceiling debate." Eric Cantor (R-VA) also repeatedly and rudely cut Obama off while they were talking about the debt ceiling. As a result, Obama got angry at him and just walked off. This is why I think an agreement won't be reached and our country will default on it's debt, causing catastrophic economic damage that will be felt across the world.

These folks all had different opinions. But two of the opinions seemed to somehow align. Still I was not comfortable because there were certain looks on their faces. The professor wore a look that seemed he was shouting, " this is crazy, am I in the wrong country." The partisan democrat face seemed to be shouting, " our ridiculous brothers in the republican party are at it again." And the lady republican seemed to be shouting, " we will live with our reality when we get there, you guys are scare mongers, America is an exceptional country."

Those groups of people (IMO) are simply incompatible with each other and have completely different ideologies. I don't think agreement about many things with them is possible.

Still something did not seem right. I checked out the education of the people. The least scared was the woman with the least education who dropped out of school and she made it to become the talk show host. Does education colour one's sights? Is education no longer valuable, or does it not serve purpose in modern society? Why do we have education at all?

Is this another aspect of time preference that is manifesting in modern day America? Is America losing something that it can't articulate so forcefully that is more important than free market ideology? Could this be time preference?

I believe that the desire to pursue education is lost mainly because of two reasons. One of them includes costs and the other is the desire (in general) to get educated. The costs are increasing and the desire to lean (in our generation) is going downward at a time when businesses, scientists, economists, and others are saying that America needs to increase it's competitiveness so it could stay afloat with other countries such as Canada and China. It makes sense that she was able to become a talk show host with a lower amount of education because you read off of a pre-generated transcript and ask people questions about topics. Those kinds of things are "reactive" and not "proactive". Engineering would be something that's proactive and requires a high level of education.

 

[naija4real]

Thanks, Mikey for the great pitch

Yes, every single forum member, not just American should read and contribute. It is the truth that America means a lot to the rest of the world.

Anyway, your points were well noted. I am happy you are helping move the conversation forward. I appreciate some of the reasons you put forward. But what seems to bother me is the idea that people can have it all, and do this immediately. I mean there is no more delayed gratification when making choices. It seems everyone one wants things to happen fast unlike the members of the greatest generation that had to sacrifice and work so hard for those that came after them.

Awesome post, Najia! This is a thread that I hope every single person on the forum (especially one that is American) can reply into. Nobody should ignore this. Anyways, I'm gonna quote your paragraphs and respond to each one since that's the most efficient way for me to process and comprehend your post.

I don't quite understand why it is, but I would say that there are several reasons for why this is. If I try to explain it all, it would be a huge, lengthy post so I'll just post some things which I believe that contribute to it including:

• The money
• Perceptions of American women (http://www.city-data.com/forum/rela...rican-men-preferring-european-women-over.html)
• Obesity
• Economic hardship
• Entitlement
• Issues with our infrastructure
• Socialization through the Internet and not in person
• Obama's healthcare reform he passed
• Resentment from white men and black women due to the increasing prevalence of interracial relationships, including the one we represent.
• Political and ideological in-fighting
• Bias in America's judicial system
• Problems within the workforce experience in America

True. This is what George Bush had done throughout his tenure as President. We waged two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Abu Ghraib occured in 2003, damaging our country's image and respect across the world. This is why our country and it's people are in the position that they find themselves in. Refer to my post here during President Bush's 2008 speech and you'll see why.

http://www.whitewomenblackmen.com/forum/showpost.php?p=538912&postcount=111

I don't necessarily think so. Our generation is burdened with credit card debt and college debt. As a result, this affects our ability to own a house, buy a vehicle (ideally an electric car so we are not relying on foreign oil from Saudi Arabia) and ultimately, marriage/relationships with a white woman. You also have to remember that the recession is global, not just America, so perhaps the entire world is on a descent downward.

The debate about the debt ceiling is no longer centered around the well-being of Americans. This is more about political ideology and the desire for Republicans to regain control of this country by November 2012. Mitch McConnell said "A real solution to U.S. fiscal problems isn't possible as long as President Barack Obama remains in office, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said Tuesday, heightening the rhetoric surrounding the debt-ceiling debate." Eric Cantor (R-VA) also repeatedly and rudely cut Obama off while they were talking about the debt ceiling. As a result, Obama got angry at him and just walked off. This is why I think an agreement won't be reached and our country will default on it's debt, causing catastrophic economic damage that will be felt across the world.

Those groups of people (IMO) are simply incompatible with each other and have completely different ideologies. I don't think agreement about many things with them is possible.

I believe that the desire to pursue education is lost mainly because of two reasons. One of them includes costs and the other is the desire (in general) to get educated. The costs are increasing and the desire to lean (in our generation) is going downward at a time when businesses, scientists, economists, and others are saying that America needs to increase it's competitiveness so it could stay afloat with other countries such as Canada and China. It makes sense that she was able to become a talk show host with a lower amount of education because you read off of a pre-generated transcript and ask people questions about topics. Those kinds of things are "reactive" and not "proactive". Engineering would be something that's proactive and requires a high level of education.

 

[Mikey]

Thanks, Mikey for the great pitch

Yes, every single forum member, not just American should read and contribute. It is the truth that America means a lot to the rest of the world.

Anyway, your points were well noted. I am happy you are helping move the conversation forward. I appreciate some of the reasons you put forward. But what seems to bother me is the idea that people can have it all, and do this immediately. I mean there is no more delayed gratification when making choices. It seems everyone one wants things to happen fast unlike the members of the greatest generation that had to sacrifice and work so hard for those that came after them.

I think the descent downward has occurred due to the economic recession, which actually started in December of 2007. Before then, things in America were somewhat better, I guess and there wasn't as much talk as there is now about civility and things of that sort.

Also, we cannot forget about racial barriers that the Republicans are putting up against Obama's intent to improve the economy in the future. A Congresswoman recently invoked the fact that (in addition to Republican ideology) Obama is black/bi-racial s the result of a lack of an agreement about the debt.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...blames_debt_ceiling_fight_on_obamas_race.html

Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) used the race card this afternoon to assess blame in the debt ceiling fight. Jackson Lee, a black Congresswoman, believes the disagreement over raising the debt ceiling is because of President Obama's race.

"I am particularly sensitive to the fact that only this president, only this president, only this one has received the kind attacks and disagreements and inability to work. Only this one," Jackson Lee said on the House floor this afternoon.

"Read between the lines."

"What is different about this president that should put him in a position that he should not receive the same kind of respectful treatment of when it is necessary to raise the debt limit in order to pay our bills, something required by both statute and the 14th amendment?"

 

[naija4real]

I suspect the economic recession exacerbated it. The reason that I say so is because events leading to the economic recession might point in this direction. The political choices that gave people feel good policies. Ideas such as everyone owning a home without some substantial down payment. The idea that you could have what takes years to acquire now. The sophisticated financial schemes that worked dangerously on risk and probabilities.

I am not sure I can explain this clearly but I will still try. Some years ago, I read a book titled fashion conspiracy. It was a small book, but it detailed how hyped fashion produced in low wage countries ended up as highly priced items through a network of celebrity endorsements, media blitz and advertisement. This highlights low production costs and huge profits.

What seems so interesting about this example is the whole idea behind companies and how many folks have tried to understand the relationship between compensation of managers of companies and their loyalty to the shareholders of the companies. The questions that arise here is are the decisions they take in the long term interest of the company, or in the short term. Long term means they make tough choices that affect compensation but benefit the shareholder value on the long term, but might impact their compensation during the years they manage the company.

This sort of argument affects politic too. The politician has a 4 year horizon to make choices. Long term choices would not benefit the politician within the 4 years horizon since he would want to be re-elected.

Like I mentioned earlier about the fashion thing, many things moved outside of the US based on the bottom line focus of company managers. Many benefited from tax relief in their localities yet shifted jobs overseas. This meant expertise shifted overseas as well. Financial capital followed. Wages stagnated, and company bosses saw their earnings rise.

Unfortunately, the financial whiz-kids created a wealth illusion and encouraged consumption through debt. Meanwhile wealth is not created from immediate gratification. It is created through savings and denying oneself.

The greatest generation denied themselves and worked hard so the next generation could benefit. This same example played out in Ireland where reckless financial schemes ruined the future of a generation to the extent that colleges graduates are having to look for jobs outside Europe in places like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States sometimes.


I don't want to make this long, but I hope a pattern is emerging as to my trend of thought.

I think the descent downward has occurred due to the economic recession, which actually started in December of 2007. Before then, things in America were somewhat better, I guess and there wasn't as much talk as there is now about civility and things of that sort.

Also, we cannot forget about racial barriers that the Republicans are putting up against Obama's intent to improve the economy in the future. A Congresswoman recently invoked the fact that (in addition to Republican ideology) Obama is black/bi-racial s the result of a lack of an agreement about the debt.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...blames_debt_ceiling_fight_on_obamas_race.html

 

[Mikey]

I suspect the economic recession exacerbated it. The reason that I say so is because events leading to the economic recession might point in this direction. The political choices that gave people feel good policies. Ideas such as everyone owning a home without some substantial down payment. The idea that you could have what takes years to acquire now. The sophisticated financial schemes that worked dangerously on risk and probabilities.

I am not sure I can explain this clearly but I will still try. Some years ago, I read a book titled fashion conspiracy. It was a small book, but it detailed how hyped fashion produced in low wage countries ended up as highly priced items through a network of celebrity endorsements, media blitz and advertisement. This highlights low production costs and huge profits.

What seems so interesting about this example is the whole idea behind companies and how many folks have tried to understand the relationship between compensation of managers of companies and their loyalty to the shareholders of the companies. The questions that arise here is are the decisions they take in the long term interest of the company, or in the short term. Long term means they make tough choices that affect compensation but benefit the shareholder value on the long term, but might impact their compensation during the years they manage the company.

This sort of argument affects politic too. The politician has a 4 year horizon to make choices. Long term choices would not benefit the politician within the 4 years horizon since he would want to be re-elected.

Like I mentioned earlier about the fashion thing, many things moved outside of the US based on the bottom line focus of company managers. Many benefited from tax relief in their localities yet shifted jobs overseas. This meant expertise shifted overseas as well. Financial capital followed. Wages stagnated, and company bosses saw their earnings rise.

Unfortunately, the financial whiz-kids created a wealth illusion and encouraged consumption through debt. Meanwhile wealth is not created from immediate gratification. It is created through savings and denying oneself.

The greatest generation denied themselves and worked hard so the next generation could benefit. This same example played out in Ireland where reckless financial schemes ruined the future of a generation to the extent that colleges graduates are having to look for jobs outside Europe in places like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States sometimes.


I don't want to make this long, but I hope a pattern is emerging as to my trend of thought.

True. My biggest concern is wondering whether or not we will really have a "recovery" in the next few years, or is this eventually going to become the "new norm"? You are right in the belief that human civility correlates with the economic conditions that we face. And also, this applies to the entire world, not just us.

For instance, look at what I have found at this link. People are really getting desperate and do things that are clearly uncivil.

http://hawaiinewsdaily.com/2011/07/...t-they-will-do-just-about-anything-for-money/