Trayvon Martin's Murder

[Bliss]

Just because someone agrees with you does not make it the 'truth'.

The main issue that I see within this thread is that you have Camp A vs. Camp B, both with their own viewpoints and no room for compromise or level headed discussion between the two.

This is the case for the Board, period. No matter the topic. Not to mention the insults that fly.

 

[jaisee]

Do you feel better now? :roll:



By our own "shotty" legal system, had it happened the other way around, and Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, Trayvon could have easily (and probably would have) been tried as an ADULT.

Trayvon absolutely would have been tried as an ADULT. My question is, how fair would his court case have been? Could he been acquitted on a self defense argument, or would he be facing jail time now?

He was not a frightened "child". Give me a break. The dude stood at 5'11".

If we are going to hold tight to the laws of the land, lets make sure we apply them fairly. If you were to have sex with Trayvon Martin in his home state of FL, or your own you would be facing statutory rape charges for having sex with a minor.... or child. I will actually agree with you that at 17, most 'children' are actually young adults... but, this is a topic on the legal system, so lets stick to that. By law, at 17 Trayvon was still a minor. I'm not sure what his height has to do with anything, It was reported that Shaq was 6'6" at 13 years old.

People are defending Zimmerman on this thread? Where?

The entire thread?

Are you referring to me? Because I refuse to get riled up and manipulated by the media and Sharpton? In my personal opinion, this is not a clear cut case of racism. There are too many things that are just unknown about how Martin and Zimmerman ended up fighting and one getting killed.

Oh, I agree with this entirely. I am not entirely convinced that Zimmerman is a racist, however I cannot dispute that due to a situation created by him out of his own profiling a 17 year old manchild is now dead. Everyone talks about how Trayvon should have handled the situation... he should have ran, he should have stopped and given Zimmerman his address. How about Zimmerman should have called 911 and left it at that?

And had Zimmerman been black, there would be no media coverage, no Al Sharpton and no President Obama speaking about Trayvon's death. They wouldn't even know about it.

And if a team other than the Miami Heat won the NBA championship, the media would have been covering that instead. If Detroit hadn't filed for Bankruptcy, there would be no media coverage of that. If that chick in England didn't have a baby, there would be no media coverage of that.

A computer programmer makes applications and the media follows 'stories'...

I'm just really tired of the hypocrisy of the "outrage" at this murder. Like Trayvon's life was more important than the thousands of innocent African-Americans being shot and killed on the streets of every major city in this country on a daily basis.

The outrage is over the fact that Zimmerman was initially not arrested for the shooting and further that he walked free. Those same major cities where thousands of innocent African-Americans are shot and killed on a daily basis also have prisons that are full of African-Americans who shot and killed them.

But because they're shot by gang members, the media doesn't give a shit about them. They can't make money off of peoples' clicks on their websites with those stories.

Down here in Florida, it seems like every Monday I'm hearing about the 40 something people shot and 7 or 8 who died due to gang violence in Chicago. It is making the news.

But, again.,. the news is a business just like everything else in this country. As soon as the stories prove not to be profitable, they'll move on.

Remember Hadiya Pendleton? She made news for what, like a week after her murder? But the media stopped showing her picture because she was killed by a gang member. There was no Obama claiming that Hadiya could have been his daughter. Michelle Obama was not out saying that Hadiya could have been her 35 years ago. Why? Because she had the "unfortunate luck" of being killed by a gang member. So somehow, her death weighs less than Trayvon's.

Same happens when white cops shoot innocent blacks. It makes the news for a while and then it stops.

Their business booms if they continue keeping racial tensions alive and kicking. I'm beginning to notice a theme though, it is the media that has you riled up.

There are absolutely, without a doubt, clear-cut cases of white racism on blacks, but in this case, in my personal opinion, it's ambiguous at best. If Zimmerman had uttered a racial slur on the 911 call, I'd be more inclined to say otherwise, but I don't think it's that simple to just claim racism in this particular case.

Am I defending what Zimmerman did? Not by a long shot, but I'm hesitant to jump on the racism bandwagon with this one. So therefore, my opinion differs from others. Last time I checked, I was allowed to form my own opinion on this matter.

Aside from 'they always get away' or whatever statement he made, which in itself is not clear cut racism, I agree with this statement. Again, I do not know if Zimmerman killed Trayvon because he is a racist. However, I do know that he created a situation out of his own profiling that ended up in a man-child getting shot at his hand.

There are other things about this that I take into account, for example... how was he able to get to the gun at his waist if Trayvon was on his chest 'bashing' his head into the sidewalk? Why was his gun off safety, unless he expected an altercation? It takes 2 hands to take a gun off safety. Or, are we to believe that in the middle of getting those two little scratches on the back of his head that he had the presence of mind to still manage to get his gun, disengage the safety (2 hand process), load a bullet into the chamber (2 hand process) and fire then fire the firearm? ... and Trayvon just sits there and lets all of this happen? Also what was the weight difference between the two? Seems Zimmerman would have had an innate strength advantage just based on that alone. Or maybe Trayvon is just THAT good of a fighter?

As you've stated, this is ALL pure speculation. What isn't speculation is that Trayvon walked to the store for candy and a drink, while walking home was profiled and as a result is dead. I will also speculate that if Trayvon was little Timmy and GZ was Tyrone, Tyrone's ass would be in prison right now. That's just a gut feeling that I have, nothing more.

 

[jaisee]

People don't seem to understand this case gained nationwide attention because Trayvon's admitted killed WAS NOT arrested that same night and allowed to go home....FREE OF CHARGES.

When does that ever happen in a homicide???

George Zimmerman was allowed to make up whatever story he wanted and the Stanford PD bought it whole hog.

It was only after people became aware that George Zimmerman racially profiled Travyon as a potential criminal and followed him for several blocks in his car and on foot, knowing that Trayvon had committed no crime, that people became incensed.

People didn't randomly pick this case out the clear blue to be angry about.

When an armed adult kills an unarmed teen and isn't charged with a damn thing, most people think there's something fucked up with that equation.

Like others have said, if that crime had happened in a state other than Florida, Zimmerman under the exact same circumstances would have been charged and absolutely convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

That's where the outrage comes from.

If that girl in Chicago's killer had been known and let go by the police on the claim of 'self defense', people would be marching in the streets for that travesty of justice too.

This case is unique.

It's not another statistic about another Black kid gunned down.

If this case isn't something people want to discuss, let's cut this right-wing BS deflection crap.

Trayvon's murder has NOTHING at all to do with the rate of crime in the Black community, or how many Black people are killed by other Blacks, or absentee Black fathers, or the incarceration rate of young Black men.

It has everything to do with George Zimmerman, the state of Florida, Trayvon Martin, the Stanford PD, and the institutional racism rampant throughout the justice system.

Which is why many of us intuitively know if you switched the races of the victim and the murderer in the Trayvon Martin case, there's no way in hell the outcome would be the same.

Good luck to any 28 year old Black man claiming in court he feared for his life from a weedhead 17 year old White kid and therefore had to shoot him dead.

People need to stop parroting what they're hearing from conservative news and think with their heads.

I wish I would have read this before I posted.... could have saved myself a lot of typing.

/Agreed!

 

[Ches]

People don't seem to understand this case gained nationwide attention because Trayvon's admitted killed WAS NOT arrested that same night and allowed to go home....FREE OF CHARGES.

When does that ever happen in a homicide???

George Zimmerman was allowed to make up whatever story he wanted and the Stanford PD bought it whole hog.

It was only after people became aware that George Zimmerman racially profiled Travyon as a potential criminal and followed him for several blocks in his car and on foot, knowing that Trayvon had committed no crime, that people became incensed.

People didn't randomly pick this case out the clear blue to be angry about.

When an armed adult kills an unarmed teen and isn't charged with a damn thing, most people think there's something fucked up with that equation.

Like others have said, if that crime had happened in a state other than Florida, Zimmerman under the exact same circumstances would have been charged and absolutely convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

That's where the outrage comes from.

If that girl in Chicago's killer had been known and let go by the police on the claim of 'self defense', people would be marching in the streets for that travesty of justice too.

This case is unique.

It's not another statistic about another Black kid gunned down.

If this case isn't something people want to discuss, let's cut this right-wing BS deflection crap.

Trayvon's murder has NOTHING at all to do with the rate of crime in the Black community, or how many Black people are killed by other Blacks, or absentee Black fathers, or the incarceration rate of young Black men.

It has everything to do with George Zimmerman, the state of Florida, Trayvon Martin, the Stanford PD, and the institutional racism rampant throughout the justice system.

Which is why many of us intuitively know if you switched the races of the victim and the murderer in the Trayvon Martin case, there's no way in hell the outcome would be the same.

Good luck to any 28 year old Black man claiming in court he feared for his life from a weedhead 17 year old White kid and therefore had to shoot him dead.

People need to stop parroting what they're hearing from conservative news and think with their heads.

Repped.

 

[Ches]

I wish I would have read this before I posted.... could have saved myself a lot of typing.

/Agreed!

Your post was well worth the read.

 

[jaisee]

Yeah, but I could have had a V8.

 

[Ches]

Yeah, but I could have had a V8.

Lmao! True dat!

 

[Bliss]

The outrage is over the fact that Zimmerman was initially not arrested for the shooting and further that he walked free. Those same major cities where thousands of innocent African-Americans are shot and killed on a daily basis also have prisons that are full of African-Americans who shot and killed them.

About those full jails? In my city sadly, murder often doesn't get you many years anymore.

Also, in many cases people don't help. They see nothing. This is where I just don't get it and like the old man said...People demanded Zimmerman be arrested, but won't demand it of the killers in our own streets. Suddenly no one saw anything, heard anything, & speak nothing.

More than 150 Philadelphia homicides from 2012 unsolved

PHILADELPHIA - March 1, 2013 (WPVI) -- Of the 334 homicides in Philadelphia in 2012, more than 150 of them are still unsolved.
Not only are the killers still on the streets, but those 150 families are still waiting for justice. They are crying out for more to be done to keep Philadelphia safe and to make sure dangerous criminals are behind bars...

More...http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/special_reports&id=9012903

We have 150 killers on the loose and it's scary as hell.

 

[jaisee]

Are those murders unsolved because they're not prosecuted or unsolved because arrests are not made?

As far as people not seeing anything, that is simply because black people do not want to work with the system. There is a general hostility toward the police already, add to that the fact you could end up next if you were to cooperate with the police.

I agree with you, the mentality in the black community needs to change. That does not dissolve the need for justice in this instance though.

Just some quick statistics pulled off a wiki (yes, I know... it's a wiki) out of laziness.

- A black male born in 1991 has a 29% chance of spending time in prison at some point in his life.2
- Nearly one in three African American males aged 20–29 are under some form of criminal justice supervision whether imprisoned, jailed, on parole or probation.
- One out of nine African American men will be incarcerated between the ages of 20 and 34.
- Black males ages 30 to 34 have the highest incarceration rate of any race/ethnicity.

The justice system has NO issue with locking up black males.

 

[Bliss]

People don't seem to understand this case gained nationwide attention because Trayvon's admitted killed WAS NOT arrested that same night and allowed to go home....FREE OF CHARGES.

When does that ever happen in a homicide???

George Zimmerman was allowed to make up whatever story he wanted and the Stanford PD bought it whole hog.

...People didn't randomly pick this case out the clear blue to be angry about.

That's where the outrage comes from.

This case is unique.

Which is why many of us intuitively know if you switched the races of the victim and the murderer in the Trayvon Martin case, there's no way in hell the outcome would be the same.

I respect where you are coming from, but you should also know the SYG facts... as sobering as they may be. This case is actually NOT unique. People do not get arrested, more than we know (see below).

"Compiled by the Tampa Bay Times, of fatal Florida cases in which SYG was invoked. The DC's findings:

133 Floridians have used a 'Stand Your Ground' defense.

Of these claims -
73 were considered 'justified' (55 percent)
39 resulted in criminal convictions
21 cases are still pending.


44 African American Floridians have claimed a 'SYG' defense.

Of these claims -
24 were considered 'justified' (55 percent)
11 resulted in convictions
9 cases are still pending.


76 White Floridians have used the defense -

Of these claims -
40 were considered 'justified' (52 percent)
25 were convicted
11 cases are still pending.


10 Hispanics have used the defense -

7 successfully, according to the database,
which included George Zimmerman as a 'SYG' defendant."


The incorrect inclusion of Zimmerman aside...1/3 of all SYG defendants were Black; African Americans make up 16 percent of Florida's population.

When Black defendants invoked the law, they were successful as often as Whites.

Discounting cases that are still pending, their success rate was 69 percent of the times SYG was invoked, compared to 62% for whites, and 65% overall.


Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” cases have resulted in 78 white victims to 40 black victims, including Martin, and 10 Hispanic victims.

2/3 of all SYG Victims, were White.



http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/kyle-wingfield/2013/jul/17/stand-your-ground-and-race-numbers/

 

[jaisee]

Are there any numbers on white SYG victims where the defendant was black?

 

[Bliss]

Are there any numbers on white SYG victims where the defendant was black?

Good question. I can def look into that if you give me a bit of time...

 

[Archman]

I respect where you are coming from, but you should also know the SYG facts... as sobering as they may be. This case is actually NOT unique. People do not get arrested, more than we know (see below).

"Compiled by the Tampa Bay Times, of fatal Florida cases in which SYG was invoked. The DC's findings:

133 Floridians have used a 'Stand Your Ground' defense.

Of these claims -
73 were considered 'justified' (55 percent)
39 resulted in criminal convictions
21 cases are still pending.


44 African American Floridians have claimed a 'SYG' defense.

Of these claims -
24 were considered 'justified' (55 percent)
11 resulted in convictions
9 cases are still pending.


76 White Floridians have used the defense -

Of these claims -
40 were considered 'justified' (52 percent)
25 were convicted
11 cases are still pending.


10 Hispanics have used the defense -

7 successfully, according to the database,
which included George Zimmerman as a 'SYG' defendant."


The incorrect inclusion of Zimmerman aside...1/3 of all SYG defendants were Black; African Americans make up 16 percent of Florida's population.

When Black defendants invoked the law, they were successful as often as Whites.

Discounting cases that are still pending, their success rate was 69 percent of the times SYG was invoked, compared to 62% for whites, and 65% overall.


Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” cases have resulted in 78 white victims to 40 black victims, including Martin, and 10 Hispanic victims.

2/3 of all SYG Victims, were White.



http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/kyle-wingfield/2013/jul/17/stand-your-ground-and-race-numbers/

Fair-enough presentation. ...The stats speak for themselves. ..
The question is , like Bookie's piece , can you get anyone to read and believe and accept certain inalienable truths. ...

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

can you get anyone to read and believe and accept certain inalienable truths. ...

Quit trying to make your opinions & views "inalienable truths", because someone can post up stats supporting views & opinions you don't agree with and you would claim they were biased. SMDH.

 

[The Dark King]

Do you feel better now? :roll:



By our own "shotty" legal system, had it happened the other way around, and Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, Trayvon could have easily (and probably would have) been tried as an ADULT.

He was not a frightened "child". Give me a break. The dude stood at 5'11".

And if you read the transcript of GZ's 911 call, he states that Trayvon ran and he couldn't find him. That sounds like he was out of danger right there.



People are defending Zimmerman on this thread? Where?

Are you referring to me? Because I refuse to get riled up and manipulated by the media and Sharpton? In my personal opinion, this is not a clear cut case of racism. There are too many things that are just unknown about how Martin and Zimmerman ended up fighting and one getting killed.

And had Zimmerman been black, there would be no media coverage, no Al Sharpton and no President Obama speaking about Trayvon's death. They wouldn't even know about it.

I'm just really tired of the hypocrisy of the "outrage" at this murder. Like Trayvon's life was more important than the thousands of innocent African-Americans being shot and killed on the streets of every major city in this country on a daily basis.

But because they're shot by gang members, the media doesn't give a shit about them. They can't make money off of peoples' clicks on their websites with those stories.

Remember Hadiya Pendleton? She made news for what, like a week after her murder? But the media stopped showing her picture because she was killed by a gang member. There was no Obama claiming that Hadiya could have been his daughter. Michelle Obama was not out saying that Hadiya could have been her 35 years ago. Why? Because she had the "unfortunate luck" of being killed by a gang member. So somehow, her death weighs less than Trayvon's.

Their business booms if they continue keeping racial tensions alive and kicking.

There are absolutely, without a doubt, clear-cut cases of white racism on blacks, but in this case, in my personal opinion, it's ambiguous at best. If Zimmerman had uttered a racial slur on the 911 call, I'd be more inclined to say otherwise, but I don't think it's that simple to just claim racism in this particular case.

Am I defending what Zimmerman did? Not by a long shot, but I'm hesitant to jump on the racism bandwagon with this one. So therefore, my opinion differs from others. Last time I checked, I was allowed to form my own opinion on this matter.

You like so many keep confusing what the outrage is about and most likely will never get it. Its not just about who killed TM its how the case was handled and more importantly the character assassination of this kid after the fact. Its like even if you are minding your own business not bothering a soul you are automatically guilty and should comply with the requests of any stranger tracking you at night. Bookie you're full of shit right now kid.

 

[Bliss]

Are there any numbers on white SYG victims where the defendant was black?

Here is a very Liberal Site who deciphered the numbers of White victims of Black defendants -

- When the victim is White and killed by a black or Hispanic person,
the murder is considered justified just 60 % of the time.


*Also, while you didn't ask, in case you were wondering...

- Whites who kill Blacks are found justified 86% of the time.

- Blacks who kill other Blacks are found justified under “SYG” 73% of the time.

So, there is definitely a 13% favorable disparity in 'justified' outcomes for Whites.

***
To see the complete raw data compiled by The Tampa Bay Times of each of 200 cases broken down, etc...
http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

 

[jaisee]

Here is a very Liberal Site who deciphered the numbers of White victims of Black defendants -

- When the victim is White and killed by a black or Hispanic person,
the murder is considered justified just 60 % of the time.


*Also, while you didn't ask, in case you were wondering...

- Whites who kill Blacks are found justified 86% of the time.

- Blacks who kill other Blacks are found justified under “SYG” 73% of the time.

So, there is definitely a 13% favorable disparity in 'justified' outcomes for Whites.

***
To see the complete raw data compiled by The Tampa Bay Times of each of 200 cases broken down, etc...
http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

Fair-enough presentation. ...The stats speak for themselves. ..
The question is , can you get anyone to read and believe and accept certain inalienable truths. ...

 

[The Dark King]

Fair-enough presentation. ...The stats speak for themselves. ..
The question is , can you get anyone to read and believe and accept certain inalienable truths. ...

Its so counter intuitive to everything I see and here as far as the culture of race in this country goes. Its really hard to believe. Btw Bliss wouldn't it be 26%extra disparity.

 

[jaisee]

Its so counter intuitive to everything I see and here as far as the culture of race in this country goes. Its really hard to believe. Btw Bliss wouldn't it be 26%extra disparity.

It would be easy to just run with those statistics, as they do support the claim that justice is not as colorblind as the system would have us believe. However, I do know all too well that statistics alone are not so cut and dry. There is a story to tie into each killing represented in those statistics that can pendulum the discussion.

 

[Bliss]

Are those murders unsolved because they're not prosecuted or unsolved because arrests are not made?

Unsolved because arrests are not made. I posted only an excerpt, however the article covered it.

As far as people not seeing anything, that is simply because black people do not want to work with the system. There is a general hostility toward the police already, add to that the fact you could end up next if you were to cooperate with the police.

I agree with you, the mentality in the black community needs to change. That does not dissolve the need for justice in this instance though.

No one is saying that it dissolves the need. Totally agree that justice be sought.

I feel the issue of neglect lies in not helping the police to arrest alleged murderers. Where is the 'general hostility towards the police' you speak of when it comes to demanding arrests of White killers? It just doesn't compute.

Just some quick statistics pulled off a wiki (yes, I know... it's a wiki) out of laziness.

- A black male born in 1991 has a 29% chance of spending time in prison at some point in his life.2
- Nearly one in three African American males aged 20–29 are under some form of criminal justice supervision whether imprisoned, jailed, on parole or probation.
- One out of nine African American men will be incarcerated between the ages of 20 and 34.
- Black males ages 30 to 34 have the highest incarceration rate of any race/ethnicity.

The justice system has NO issue with locking up black males.

Depressingly high numbers. I think we could also guestimate that a high percentage of those numbers come from drug convictions.
*Quick FYI: I provided TDK with a Govt link recently showing there has been some recent amendments to drug case sentencing guidelines which might reflect for the first time in a long time, an actual lowering number of Black male incarcerations than the previous years. By contrast, there is a rise in White male incarceration. Same figures with Black women - lowered, while White women's has risen.
However, there is no doubt still a high number of incarcerated Black males.