Black men vs black men

The Dark King said:
So what has black people in Brazil, Jamaica, Hati, and all through Africa engaging in "gangsta" behavior? What had them doing it prior to the 1980s?
Entertainment may glorify certain behavior but it sure as hell doesn't drive it the way you're saying. Where ever there is an illegal market there are assholes wearing gawty shit and acting the fool to show off what they have. As long as their is economic and social disparity this shit will persist. Entertainment has little if anything at all to do with it.
And I won't say "white people listen to it too" I will say people with in the middle to upper middle class make this shit commercially successful and those people (black, white, hispanic, etc) can enjoy the entertainment and still achieve things professionally and academically. So again please tell me your point sir.
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I'm not saying it drives it. I will say that the glorification of it to an impressionable mind may be a contributing factor, absolutely. It's really formulaic, with the main ingredient being social factors... but that is a discussion for a thread on a different topic. However, if that discussion were to come up the first counter point would be that we are not the only community that faces those same social factors. To which I'll reply, ok lets find a solution within ourselves and serve as the blue print for others to follow.

To clarify, no... rap in itself is not the problem, rap did not create the conditions that lead to the issues that we're discussing. At the end of the day, where my agenda is unity and advancement of my people and my culture and rap preaches the exact opposite in my eyes there's no difference between rap and a klan rally.

I've always wondered, but have never wanted to ask, how many people actually realize the symbolism in this:

406782-im_rich_bitch.jpeg


It demonstrates rap (much of black entertainment on a whole) on so many levels.
 
The Dark King said:
Why should they lead their peers? What makes them qualified to do that?
Truth is the vast majority of people either do their own thing or follow even perceived leaders follow someone else's lead. Even the President has to listen to Congress even the Queen must listen to Parliment and they are all subject to the whims of corporate interests lead by many people.
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I think that parents teach kids how to be independent and mistake that for leadership. You are not a leader if no one follows or if you are told what to do.


Leave your children alone with others and see how they perform.
 
archangel said:
I think that parents teach kids how to be independent and mistake that for leadership. You are not a leader if no one follows or if you are told what to do.


Leave your children alone with others and see how they perform.
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Very true... there are very very very VERY few people who are actually fit to lead. Which is why we're left with so many unfit to lead in positions of leadership.
 
jaisee said:
Very true... there are very very very VERY few people who are actually fit to lead. Which is why we're left with so many unfit to lead in positions of leadership.
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Amen. Yet everyone swears to God their Spawn is the one next president of apple without exhibiting any talent for it what so ever. I get all parents THINK their kids are special but should be actually TRAINING them to be instead of just thinking it.
 
jaisee said:
I'm not saying it drives it. I will say that the glorification of it to an impressionable mind may be a contributing factor, absolutely. It's really formulaic, with the main ingredient being social factors... but that is a discussion for a thread on a different topic. However, if that discussion were to come up the first counter point would be that we are not the only community that faces those same social factors. To which I'll reply, ok lets find a solution within ourselves and serve as the blue print for others to follow.

To clarify, no... rap in itself is not the problem, rap did not create the conditions that lead to the issues that we're discussing. At the end of the day, where my agenda is unity and advancement of my people and my culture and rap preaches the exact opposite in my eyes there's no difference between rap and a klan rally.

I've always wondered, but have never wanted to ask, how many people actually realize the symbolism in this:

406782-im_rich_bitch.jpeg


It demonstrates rap (much of black entertainment on a whole) on so many levels.
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Well not just rap but corporatism. Its called golden handcuffs.
 
The Dark King said:
Why should they lead their peers? What makes them qualified to do that?
Truth is the vast majority of people either do their own thing or follow even perceived leaders follow someone else's lead. Even the President has to listen to Congress even the Queen must listen to Parliment and they are all subject to the whims of corporate interests lead by many people.
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You seriously don't get it. As usual I don't know if you're trying to be difficult or if you really can't wrap your head around the point. Of course we all follow someone. There's a big difference between following in the footsteps of those who mentor you vs blindly following the pack because you're too cowardly to think for yourself.

Someone mentioned leadership vs independence (Im on my phone and dont have the patience to go back and quote it)...I have sat back and watched my children at school and in social settings and they are the leaders amongst their peers. When a task needs to be done, and everyone is just mulling about, my kids take charge (especially my daughter) and start delegating duties and pulling others together to brainstorm ideas. It's more than just teaching them independence (although that's huge IMO), it's teaching them actual leadership skills.
 
jaisee said:
Uggggh, no one is saying that. No one is saying that at all.

I'll tell you what I am saying. I am saying that we can do better in our own communities. I don't expect the government to make things better for me, they have proven since we got here that me and my people are of the least bit of concern to them. Given that, I expect my people to unite and to organize and work together to improve our own conditions.

We LOVE to talk about our strong history and we LOVE to talk about Martin and Malcolm... we LOVE to talk about the Black Panthers. But, at the end of the day what do we really really know about them? We shun the very principles that they tried to teach us!

"WE" do have a problem in our communities... and so do "they", nobody is denying that. We know the factors that contribute, but I stand firm in my belief that "WE" can improve them on our own. If we don't know how, we better learn quick... because I guarantee you, in this country nobody else will.
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Sorry jaisee, I wasn't trying to single you out or attribute this thinking to you. I was talking about the general notion often expressed (and not exclusively here - in fact I didn't even think of you when I typed that remark) that black criminality can be 'fixed'. I think that collective effort can be undertaken to get the numbers down closer to those of the rest of society, but a certain amount of social pathology is inherent in the human species and condition, even under optimal conditions. And add in the increased social stress of capitalism with its inherent crises and strains along with the particular burdens attendant with being an oppressed racial minority and you have a recipe for a greater level of criminality among the group in question.

I agree with you that we can do something to make things better, but not independent of broader social change needed to change the environment in which we find ourselves. For starters: 1) decriminalize drug use; 2) relentlessly push education for everyone in our community, not just youth; 3) end jail time for nonviolent offenders; 4) remove post-parole limitations on voting rights, etc. And we need all those structural changes as well as a revived sense of community responsibility to strengthen the moral fabric. But with capitalism's dog-eat-dog ethos only intensifying, I fear that the black community's ills are simply a harbinger of the future for all.
 
Understood Orejon, and agreed. In my words, there is a war on the middle and lower class in this country. Not just against blacks. I do not see white people as my enemy, if I did what sense would it make for me to be here? My enemy is capitalism, and an oppressive self-serving government. I don't expect either to be contributing factors to the improvement of the quality of life of the non-upper class American citizen.

To paraphrase Kwame Toure: "America is more ripe for a revolution today than it was in the 60's. People are more aware, and conditions are worse." I truly believe that as long as we continue to sit apathetic to the impact that a capitalist driven government has on our middle and especially lower class communities, we will continue to see our conditions worsen. Regardless the racial construct of those communities.

However... and to quote Malcolm.

Malcolm X said:
There can be no black-white unity until there is first some black unity.... We cannot think of uniting with others, until after we have first united among ourselves. We cannot think of being acceptable to others until we have first proven acceptable to ourselves.
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There is also an urgent need to unify ourselves and strengthen our communities from the inside first. We cannot make large scale change if we're unable to address it even on a smaller scale first. How can we unite for common cause when we are already busy picking off one another over colors?
 
jaisee said:
Understood Orejon, and agreed. In my words, there is a war on the middle and lower class in this country. Not just against blacks. I do not see white people as my enemy, if I did what sense would it make for me to be here? My enemy is capitalism, and an oppressive self-serving government. I don't expect either to be contributing factors to the improvement of the quality of life of the non-upper class American citizen.

To paraphrase Kwame Toure: "America is more ripe for a revolution today than it was in the 60's. People are more aware, and conditions are worse." I truly believe that as long as we continue to sit apathetic to the impact that a capitalist driven government has on our middle and especially lower class communities, we will continue to see our conditions worsen. Regardless the racial construct of those communities.

However... and to quote Malcolm.



There is also an urgent need to unify ourselves and strengthen our communities from the inside first. We cannot make large scale change if we're unable to address it even on a smaller scale first. How can we unite for common cause when we are already busy picking off one another over colors?
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Beautifully said, and I love the Malcolm X quote.
 
jaisee said:
However... and to quote Malcolm. There is also an urgent need to unify ourselves and strengthen our communities from the inside first. We cannot make large scale change if we're unable to address it even on a smaller scale first. How can we unite for common cause when we are already busy picking off one another over colors?
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Good luck at trying with that, these challenges are enormous. The first thing we need to do is address the American media outlets.
 
jaisee said:
Understood Orejon, and agreed. In my words, there is a war on the middle and lower class in this country. Not just against blacks. I do not see white people as my enemy, if I did what sense would it make for me to be here? My enemy is capitalism, and an oppressive self-serving government. I don't expect either to be contributing factors to the improvement of the quality of life of the non-upper class American citizen.

To paraphrase Kwame Toure: "America is more ripe for a revolution today than it was in the 60's. People are more aware, and conditions are worse." I truly believe that as long as we continue to sit apathetic to the impact that a capitalist driven government has on our middle and especially lower class communities, we will continue to see our conditions worsen. Regardless the racial construct of those communities.

However... and to quote Malcolm.



There is also an urgent need to unify ourselves and strengthen our communities from the inside first. We cannot make large scale change if we're unable to address it even on a smaller scale first. How can we unite for common cause when we are already busy picking off one another over colors?
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Point taken. Well said. It's overwhelming at times. Where to start? Hell, I'm exhausted just keeping my son on the honor roll.
 
orejon4 said:
It could be something as simple as letting a kid see you read a book and encouraging him to do the same.

The notion of taking personal responsibility does not negate an acknowledgement of the structural obstacles placed by others to stop black/brown/poor progress. You take responsibility and then you also point out the injustices that work against our collective success AND you do not hold our race accountable above and beyond the degree of accountability to which others are subject. It would seem to me that failing to do so is as damaging as the racism we are subjected to. It would seem to me that the approach we need is a fusion of multiple viewpoints, taking the best aspects of each.



Capitalists take 'personal responsibility' for themselves. And their assets.
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Excellent points.
 
orejon4 said:
Point taken. Well said. It's overwhelming at times. Where to start? Hell, I'm exhausted just keeping my son on the honor roll.
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Being an active father in your sons life and doing your best to keep him on the straight and narrow is a damn good start, I'd say.
 
jaisee said:
Being an active father in your sons life and doing your best to keep him on the straight and narrow is a damn good start, I'd say.
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goodlove said:
its a job that every real man loves doing
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And an exhausting one! *Yawn* He was in my mug at 7am hollering for court time today. As the song goes "the old grey mare she ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be..." I need to hire a part-time stand-in. Lol.
 
orejon4 said:
And an exhausting one! *Yawn* He was in my mug at 7am hollering for court time today. As the song goes "the old grey mare she ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be..." I need to hire a part-time stand-in. Lol.
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Damn. Wish my dad was like you growing up fam real talk. Keep up the great work
 
Loki said:
Positive story coming out of Chicago.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/chance-teaches-young-men-build-215501616.html
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Of course you know all the naysayers will be making comments to the effect of : "they don't need any programs like this they need their parents to be more responsible" or "this shouldn't just be for black /inner city kids it should be for all kids". No matter what positive steps are taken they will always be seen as negative or the incorrect steps to the naysayers.
 
Bill O'Reilly with his hypocritial self has "solutions" to the Black male problem. Never believe a conservative of him,Dr.Carson,and others who label Black leaders as "race hustlers" and"grievance workers". They have no knoledge of what it means to be a Black male in America.
 
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