Going White

[FG]

It is nice to live in California where nobody really seems to care. I see IR couples of both wm/bw and ww/bm all the time, even in my suburb and I really havent seen, or have experienced much of nasty looks/comments and I have dated IR since the 80s. I used to travel quite a bit w my x and the only place we did experience really nasty looks etc that was memorable was in NJ. But we mostly used to deliberately try to break them by engaging in goofy conversations and mostly it broke the ice. I recall IB (former poster), that it may be because I'm not blond.
The few looks or comments otherwise wasn't really that bad, but was coming from bm/bw/wm/wm pretty evenly. Or so I remember it anyhow.

Maybe I should add that I have dated IR in Sweden, Houston and Seattle also.

 

[The Dark King]

We must first recognize the difference between entertainment in the form of "hit shows" versus real life relationships.

Again, discounting someone's experiences solely based upon the fact that you do not experience it personally is rather naïve. Again, it is like a white person stating that racism does not exist because they do not experience the same. Let's at least be adult enough to be able to have a discussion.

I have had numerous experiences of nasty comments, disgusting rumors, snide remarks when I am being complimented, making sexual advances to the man in my life, roommates deleting messages, etc., etc., etc.

Again it sounds like a you thing not a cultural thing like I said show me some evidence give me more than a person anecdote. For example I am not Hispanic nor am I worried deportation but much of their plight is very obvious and easy to point to when giving an example.

 

[The Dark King]

So your saying bm/ww have it worse than bw/wm?

Dude do I really have to state something so obvious. Ask me if fat guys have a harder time than skinny guys dating next.

 

[Apollonia]

Again it sounds like a you thing not a cultural thing like I said show me some evidence give me more than a person anecdote. For example I am not Hispanic nor am I worried deportation but much of their plight is very obvious and easy to point to when giving an example.

Why does my experience (and the experiences of other BW who date/marry interracially) regarding the matter require research studies, dissertations and a thesis while others simply state their experience and are taken at their word? I have never seen a research study that validates the stories of BW making nasty comments to BM/WW couples but I simply take them at their word. However, those stories are also anecdotal.

 

[MilkandCoffee]

Dude do I really have to state something so obvious. Ask me if fat guys have a harder time than skinny guys dating next.

If you do believe that than you are arguing over who gets the short end of the stick. Also

Everyone has their own opinion, personally i believe minority men have it worst than minority women when we date interracially.

 

[The Dark King]

Why does my experience (and the experiences of other BW who date/marry interracially) regarding the matter require research studies, dissertations and a thesis while others simply state their experience and are taken at their word? I have never seen a research study that validates the stories of BW making nasty comments to BM/WW couples but I simply take them at their word. However, those stories are also anecdotal.

Again not discounting you're personal experience I do however challenge the premise that wm/bw couples are under the scrutiny that you describe. It doesn't match up to the culture of present day America sorry it just doesn't. I can never recall a time where white women complained about "their" men being taken. One male superiority within the white culture would never allow it since its patriarchal and two there isn't an illusion of a shortage good hard working white men so the complaint would be looked at as crazy. Also on a large scale ww don't see bw as competition the way bw might see ww. Bw aren't the standard of beauty and quite honestly white culture holds thinness as value which most black women don't possess along with features like thicker coarser hair that is foreign to the beauty concept in this country. Again bm grow up in matriarchal households for the most part where a woman is in charge for the majority of their formative years so instead of developing and ownership outlook on "our" women most bm develop a protective nature for women close to them and ambivalence for those who aren't much like dogs (obviously not calling bm dogs but using that as easy example)
Bm have been considered a threat to white manhood because we tend be larger and stronger and that conjures feelings of insecurity immediately as well as the myth we are more endowed than they are (men are incredibly threatened and insecure about the idea of another man being bigger than they are and possibly a better lover) leads to some type of jealousy. Ever wonder why no one loses their shit when Asian men are with white women? It's because they aren't seen as a threat physically (ironically since they are very much a threat intellectually and in a digital world that matters most) there is a persistent myth that they are weaker and less endowed so there isn't anything to worry about. So when a ww chooses a bm the insecurities bubble and quickly rise to the top. Accusations of bottom of the barrel women choosing to be with bm are quickly thrown out, they need to justify why any ww would choose a bm to cover up their own insecurities. I NEVER hear this the other way around. I never hear bm criticizing bw in this way because we don't harbor a superiority complex designed to mask our inferiority complex. Nor do I see bm claiming betrayal in the same way bw do because we don't live in a culture that demands your loyalty because don't expect it opposed to wm who demand a ww's loyalty because their culture is patriarchal so they believe the women owe to them. So the fact that bw aren't considered an aesthetic threat coupled with the fact they live under patriarchal rule, ask any feminist, it's difficult to see ww who would take offense in mass at least not in the way bw do when bm "step out"

Obviously what I am saying is vast generalizations but that's what usually happens in these types of conversations.

 

[The Dark King]

If you do believe that than you are arguing over who gets the short end of the stick. Also

Everyone has their own opinion, personally i believe minority men have it worst than minority women when we date interracially.

Of course we do, NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL ANYONE ELSE FOR DOING OUTSIDE OF US

 

[orejon4]

As far as the nasty comments, I avoid hanging out with people like that. In my personal social circle the black women and men are all dating interracially and everyone gets along. I'm aware, however, that it might just be my little miscegenationist fantasy world, but there are groups that don't care that much. I know that there are many in every racial group that frown on it, but they tend to be the type of people that I don't come across in my regular socializing, so they don't have much of an impact on my life. I know they're there, just like I know the Rocky Mountains are there, but I don't have to deal with them everyday. Lol

 

[Ches]

Again not discounting you're personal experience I do however challenge the premise that wm/bw couples are under the scrutiny that you describe. It doesn't match up to the culture of present day America sorry it just doesn't. I can never recall a time where white women complained about "their" men being taken. One male superiority within the white culture would never allow it since its patriarchal and two there isn't an illusion of a shortage good hard working white men so the complaint would be looked at as crazy. Also on a large scale ww don't see bw as competition the way bw might see ww. Bw aren't the standard of beauty and quite honestly white culture holds thinness as value which most black women don't possess along with features like thicker coarser hair that is foreign to the beauty concept in this country. Again bm grow up in matriarchal households for the most part where a woman is in charge for the majority of their formative years so instead of developing and ownership outlook on "our" women most bm develop a protective nature for women close to them and ambivalence for those who aren't much like dogs (obviously not calling bm dogs but using that as easy example)
Bm have been considered a threat to white manhood because we tend be larger and stronger and that conjures feelings of insecurity immediately as well as the myth we are more endowed than they are (men are incredibly threatened and insecure about the idea of another man being bigger than they are and possibly a better lover) leads to some type of jealousy. Ever wonder why no one loses their shit when Asian men are with white women? It's because they aren't seen as a threat physically (ironically since they are very much a threat intellectually and in a digital world that matters most) there is a persistent myth that they are weaker and less endowed so there isn't anything to worry about. So when a ww chooses a bm the insecurities bubble and quickly rise to the top. Accusations of bottom of the barrel women choosing to be with bm are quickly thrown out, they need to justify why any ww would choose a bm to cover up their own insecurities. I NEVER hear this the other way around. I never hear bm criticizing bw in this way because we don't harbor a superiority complex designed to mask our inferiority complex. Nor do I see bm claiming betrayal in the same way bw do because we don't live in a culture that demands your loyalty because don't expect it opposed to wm who demand a ww's loyalty because their culture is patriarchal so they believe the women owe to them. So the fact that bw aren't considered an aesthetic threat coupled with the fact they live under patriarchal rule, ask any feminist, it's difficult to see ww who would take offense in mass at least not in the way bw do when bm "step out"

Obviously what I am saying is vast generalizations but that's what usually happens in these types of conversations.

I'd be oxygen-deprived if I tried to read this out loud, but it all really made sense, as I've witnessed much of this myself. One thing that jumped out at me is the bolded part. Many BM do not offer the same loyalty and and respect to their wife/girlfriend as they do their mother/grandmother or whoever raised them or were raised with. They have this almost-worshipful attitude towards the mother figure. Maybe it's just the men I attract. Lol

 

[The Dark King]

I'd be oxygen-deprived if I tried to read this out loud, but it all really made sense, as I've witnessed much of this myself. One thing that jumped out at me is the bolded part. Many BM do not offer the same loyalty and and respect to their wife/girlfriend as they do their mother/grandmother or whoever raised them or were raised with. They have this almost-worshipful attitude towards the mother figure. Maybe it's just the men I attract. Lol

Actually there's a lot of truth in that actually. It comes from a life time of not being able to count on no one else and constantly being told "no one is going to do what I do for you" which in large is pretty true. Whether I work at McDonalds or own a chain of them my mom, aunts, grandmother, and sister would treat me the same. Unfortunately women you date/marry won't.

 

[Ches]

Actually there's a lot of truth in that actually. It comes from a life time of not being able to count on no one else and constantly being told "no one is going to do what I do for you" which in large is pretty true. Whether I work at McDonalds or own a chain of them my mom, aunts, grandmother, and sister would treat me the same. Unfortunately women you date/marry won't.

I get that, but I've been raised with the "leave and cleave" and "one flesh" principle, and when people who marry continue to put a parent in first place, that can have an adverse affect on the union, imo. You can still honor and respect your mother, but if her well being and advice supercedes your spouse's as the rule, you've not really created that one flesh union.

That was hit home to me very clearly one night, when I sided with my mom against my husband on something. I realized that he was on one side and I was on the other and that was not where I was to be. Even if I disagreed with him, I needed to be in his court, silently supporting him because he was my husband, my flesh. And if you've chosen your partner well, standing by that principle will earn you respect from both sides. (Maybe grudgingly from Mama, lol)

 

[Bug]

I get that, but I've been raised with the "leave and cleave" and "one flesh" principle, and when people who marry continue to put a parent in first place, that can have an adverse affect on the union, imo. You can still honor and respect your mother, but if her well being and advice supercedes your spouse's as the rule, you've not really created that one flesh union.

That was hit home to me very clearly one night, when I sided with my mom against my husband on something. I realized that he was on one side and I was on the other and that was not where I was to be. Even if I disagreed with him, I needed to be in his court, silently supporting him because he was my husband, my flesh. And if you've chosen your partner well, standing by that principle will earn you respect from both sides. (Maybe grudgingly from Mama, lol)

If my Mum was right and he was wrong then I'd agree with Mum, if Mum was wrong and he was right I'd agree with him.
I side with my own view on things, not support anyone else's.

To be honest my Mum is not the kind of person to set something in motion like that anyway, we are more the jokey family who grounds each other when we have climbed to high on our soap box.

I have always put my family first, but that special someone should be part of that family and not be outside the circle, so bad opinions are just bad opinions and not side taking.

 

[4north1side2]

The problem with bw isn't the drama. Once upon a time it probably was, and you'd hear a lot of bm mention that. (and it was taboo to mention, even then)

The problem with ww isn't the drama.

Fact of the matter is, it is you who are responsible for who you get involved with. Whether it's a black woman who is into drama, a ww who is into drama, or a bm who cheats on you and leaves you and your kids.

BW don't recognize that fact, so over the generations they've become almost universally more sullen and small-minded toward bm in the u.s. than ww. I'm not talking about how they carry themselves when you're involved with them, I'm talking about those aspects of how they carry themselves that determine whether us bm are going to be more attracted to them or less attracted to them in the first place

A good vignette from my experience went like this: a bunch of young coworkers are sitting at a table having lunch. One black girl in the bunch. I say hello just casually and politely to everyone at the table, like anyone else would. Everyone else smiles and says hello, except of course, the sullen black girl who says nothing, stares forward, and iggs me cold, like it's just okay because it's just the nigger.

Nobody else would do that. A white girl these days wouldn't do that. I have a million experience with black women that are like that. Black woman act like haters waaay too readily. That's entrenched in black female culture.

a ww would regard herself as a racist or an asshole if she acted like that, so you see less of that among them. And the ones who are into bm -(like presumably bw are into bm :?- seem to make it known more readily

i.e. they seem to be warming to black men, while bw are arguably trending in the opposite direction.

Cultural trends happen. Years ago, ppl wore bell bottoms with the waists hiked up. Nowadays, the fashion is to wear stick legs with waists sagged low.

Cultural trends happen. One of the cultural trends that have occurred over the last few generations of bw is a "bm is the enemy" attitude. Roll your eyes and snarl, show him "he ain't shit". Even use the common "racism" against him.

It's probably generational, and maybe the teens and twenty-somethings have grown out of it, just like there are few bw walking around nowadays in colored contacts and blonde hair, though that trend cropped up in the past

I don't know about the younger generation, but I have plenty of experience with mine.

cultural trends happen. Some are even orchestrated or helped along by media images. Let's not deny that they happen.

Sometimes they're positive -- eg. ww are warming to us. Sometimes they're negative -- e.g. bm thinking it's cool to be pimps. Sometimes they're negative and taboo to say anything about -- e.g. bw casting bm as the enemy, right alongside with the rest of society

Cultural trends happen. They come and go, just like fashion trends.

mexicans today (enmity with blacks), aren't the mexicans of yesteryear (allies of blacks)

eastern europe of yesterday (croats and serbs intermarried) isn't the eastern europe of today (croats and serbs civil war)

white women of yesteryear aren't the ww of today

black women of yesteryear aren't the bw of today

diet changes, fashion changes, politics change, SOCIAL ATTITUDES change. Cultural trends happen.

Trends in black female culture are indeed affecting black men's love for other kinds of women.

That's taboo to say, but let's reverse it and see what people think.

Trends in black male culture are affecting the way black women look at white men..

I'll bet everyone "tightens up" and resents sentence one, but breathe easy and decompresses at sentence two

:roll:

Just because race is bullshit and doesn't determine who you are doesn't mean culture isn't real. culture does indeed have an effect on the (vast majority) of human beings who can barely think for themselves. Many peoples minds and attitudes are overwhelmingly a product of their culture.

Cultural trends happen. BF cultural trends are having an impact on black culture. One of the impacts, I'd wager, is the out-dating rate for both bm and bw.

WF cultural trends also have an effect on this. In many areas of the u.s., it's becoming less taboo among ww to be with a bm. Women do the choosing. WW are arguably "warming" to us.

Let's not simply write off all the stuff bm have been saying for the last 30 years about bw's "complicated" relations with bm, just because the "race equation" says that bm are always in the wrong, but all other ppl's doo-doo don't stink

Cultural trends happen. The are trends in bw culture that are very bad for bm/bw relations and probably are a catalyst for more bm/ww relations.

And just like ppl generalize all over the place, you have a few interesting, positive experiences with ww and begin to compare it to the bw hating you just because you showed up, and that cinches it for some, a la "once you go white"

I see where your coming from and I've experienced this as well by the hands of all women... has it ever occurred to you that these women are hit on 24/7 so they already assume your trying to hit on them even simply being friendly saying hi. (Even tho us men use being friendly to gauge interest in a woman on the sly)

My good ex coworker and I were speaking of this topic yesterday, her name is India when I initially met her, she wasn't impressed with me the least bit. Very cold and dismissive. I remember I was in an jovial mood, walked up to introduce myself and complimented her by saying "You belong at the front desk" (She's an housekeeper and I was in housekeeping at the time) She replied back with such much sass and attitude "Don't I?" and walked the fuck off.

Everybody who was around was like

Over time we spoke and got to know each other became great work buddies and an excellent team. Yesterday I brought up this topic to her and she summed it up best "I see absolutely no reason to be flirty and nice to everyone at work, I get nothing out of it and it brings me no value so their's no fucking point, I'm here to get paid, not to be your fucking friend"

"Oh I'm a stuck up bitch all because I don't pretend to like them and flirt with them all day like the white women at the front desk or in the sales office, them chicks don't like them but all because they smile and forcefully laugh at they lame ass jokes because their to scared to tell them no or leave me alone they think these white chicks like them"

This shit is sooooooooooooo true, dudes who work in departments who have absolutely no reason to go to the front desk area somehow, someway make their way across to the front desk and hang there for a good minute just shooting the breeze with these chicks trying to bang them on the low.

I love gossip I'm always in every bodies business at work and the ladies love volunteering shit at the front desk. It's always usually the same story "so n so keeps hitting on me but he's ugly or he's a creep or I just gave him my number to be nice or so n so took so n so to HR for harassment"

 

[4north1side2]

Nobody else would do that. A white girl these days wouldn't do that. I have a million experience with black women that are like that. Black woman act like haters waaay too readily. That's entrenched in black female culture.

a ww would regard herself as a racist or an asshole if she acted like that, so you see less of that among them. And the ones who are into bm -(like presumably bw are into bm :?- seem to make it known more readily

Not my experience. For my job I meet over 150 plus people a week. I always greet them with an hearty hello along with an welcoming handshake. One thing I noticed is the majority of my weak handshakes come from white women. The problem isn't because they are physically weak, but I can tell they don't want to shake my hand but they have to. The expression on their face says it, bleak, somber, lifeless. They mumble hello under their breath.

 

[Ches]

^^^ Your co-worker, while she may be right, has a sucky attitude. There's no reason she can't be pleasant and put on a friendly face at work. She doesn't have to flirt, but a pleasant attitude is always a plus. Besides, you never know who's watching. She could be passed up for a promotion due to that sour demeanor.

 

[4north1side2]

^^^ Your co-worker, while she may be right, has a sucky attitude. There's no reason she can't be pleasant and put on a friendly face at work. She doesn't have to flirt, but a pleasant attitude is always a plus. Besides, you never know who's watching. She could be passed up for a promotion due to that sour demeanor.

She's an housekeeper in an shitty hotel, she's almost done with her degree in accounting so shell be ok. I have the same mindset as her, ill say hi but I dont go much further than that except with an very few select people in the work place.

Fuck kissing ass for promotions and networking sake. If thats who you are as an person, great but not everyone into that jolly hey buddy how ya doing? Shit

 

[Ches]

She's an housekeeper in an shitty hotel, she's almost done with her degree in accounting so shell be ok. I have the same mindset as her, ill say hi but I dont go much further than that except with an very few select people in the work place.

Fuck kissing ass for promotions and networking sake. If thats who you are as an person, great but not everyone into that jolly hey buddy how ya doing? Shit

It's not even about that. Life sucks for everybody at some point, but you can still put a smile on your face for the benefit of the others around you. Chances are, if you're sour and sullen at work, you're sour and sullen everywhere else, too. Nobody wants to be around that.

 

[Apollonia]

Again not discounting you're personal experience I do however challenge the premise that wm/bw couples are under the scrutiny that you describe. It doesn't match up to the culture of present day America sorry it just doesn't. I can never recall a time where white women complained about "their" men being taken. One male superiority within the white culture would never allow it since its patriarchal and two there isn't an illusion of a shortage good hard working white men so the complaint would be looked at as crazy. Also on a large scale ww don't see bw as competition the way bw might see ww. Bw aren't the standard of beauty and quite honestly white culture holds thinness as value which most black women don't possess along with features like thicker coarser hair that is foreign to the beauty concept in this country. Again bm grow up in matriarchal households for the most part where a woman is in charge for the majority of their formative years so instead of developing and ownership outlook on "our" women most bm develop a protective nature for women close to them and ambivalence for those who aren't much like dogs (obviously not calling bm dogs but using that as easy example)
Bm have been considered a threat to white manhood because we tend be larger and stronger and that conjures feelings of insecurity immediately as well as the myth we are more endowed than they are (men are incredibly threatened and insecure about the idea of another man being bigger than they are and possibly a better lover) leads to some type of jealousy. Ever wonder why no one loses their shit when Asian men are with white women? It's because they aren't seen as a threat physically (ironically since they are very much a threat intellectually and in a digital world that matters most) there is a persistent myth that they are weaker and less endowed so there isn't anything to worry about. So when a ww chooses a bm the insecurities bubble and quickly rise to the top. Accusations of bottom of the barrel women choosing to be with bm are quickly thrown out, they need to justify why any ww would choose a bm to cover up their own insecurities. I NEVER hear this the other way around. I never hear bm criticizing bw in this way because we don't harbor a superiority complex designed to mask our inferiority complex. Nor do I see bm claiming betrayal in the same way bw do because we don't live in a culture that demands your loyalty because don't expect it opposed to wm who demand a ww's loyalty because their culture is patriarchal so they believe the women owe to them. So the fact that bw aren't considered an aesthetic threat coupled with the fact they live under patriarchal rule, ask any feminist, it's difficult to see ww who would take offense in mass at least not in the way bw do when bm "step out"

Obviously what I am saying is vast generalizations but that's what usually happens in these types of conversations.

That was a LOT to read. I think that you are continuing to look at these issues in the larger sense of "society" but it is really important to drill down further or else you will completely miss the point. The bolded highlights my point a bit more directly. If BW aren't the standard of beauty then it may be considered an insult or a bump to the ego when we are individually praised or complimented over the beauty of a WW. Actually it is often when I am complimented by WM on the beauty of my skin color, hair texture or facial features that I have had non-black women make snarky comments. Does this happen every day? No, but it has happened repeatedly over the course of my life and it is always surprising and saddening.

In my case, it generally is not strangers (although it does happen) but with women whom I have been acquainted with in one fashion or another through school, work or my larger social circle. It is really sad and hurtful when the expressed attraction and attention of a desirable WM brings out the cattiness in a woman whom I thought was a friend or good acquaintance.

This is not a generalization about ALL WW or ALL of anyone but ask any 10 attractive BW if they have ever had an "experience" particularly when a desirable WM compliments their attractiveness in front a WW (or a non-black women) and you are bound to get a few stories about a bit of cattiness.

 

[Ches]

That was a LOT to read. I think that you are continuing to look at these issues in the larger sense of "society" but it is really important to drill down further or else you will completely miss the point. The bolded highlights my point a bit more directly. If BW aren't the standard of beauty then it may be considered an insult or a bump to the ego when we are individually praised or complimented over the beauty of a WW. Actually it is often when I am complimented by WM on the beauty of my skin color, hair texture or facial features that I have had non-black women make snarky comments. Does this happen every day? No, but it has happened repeatedly over the course of my life and it is always surprising and saddening.

In my case, it generally is not strangers (although it does happen) but with women whom I have been acquainted with in one fashion or another through school, work or my larger social circle. It is really sad and hurtful when the expressed attraction and attention of a desirable WM brings out the cattiness in a woman whom I thought was a friend or good acquaintance.

This is not a generalization about ALL WW or ALL of anyone but ask any 10 attractive BW if they have ever had an "experience" particularly when a desirable WM compliments their attractiveness in front a WW (or a non-black women) and you are bound to get a few stories about a bit of cattiness.

Does anyone else find it ironic that hundreds of thousands of WW work on getting a dark tan every year, even spending a small fortune to keep that tan year-round?

 

[orejon4]

Does anyone else find it ironic that hundreds of thousands of WW work on getting a dark tan every year, even spending a small fortune to keep that tan year-round?

I do. The beauty industry makes millions out of feeding people's insecurities, or even making insecurities where they had none. Plus, cross-cultural fertilization is feeding aspects of minority culture into white culture and vice versa. So while white beauty images are fostered in mainstream media, white women are also getting bombarded with images of tans, round bottoms, full lips, etc. It's been really prominent with the spread of R&B and dance culture into white audiences as well as the 'Latin Boom' of about 10 years ago. Meanwhile women of color are hit with the blonde bombshell archetype at the same time. It's really sad how much damage the media does in order to sell products.