How many Calls to a woman?

[Dmacho]

It's funny, the whole art of dating is often lost on me. The times and the methods used to meet women have changed tenfold. In some respects it seems that we have come around full circle...

I've tried Internet dating and found that this method brings about a whole new set of rules and etiquette. I have grown quite accustomed to speaking to a woman and then asking for her number. I'd wait the mandatory 24-72 hours, call her and see where the experience takes me. I'd say it's been 50/50. The Internet changes the game completely. The Internet enables a woman and man to judge one another not by their speaking ability or swagger but purely on physical appearance and writing ability. A man who has the gift of gab is powerless on the Internet unless he can transcend that gift onto a suitor's screen. Correspondence has replaced conversation and now "when to call" is replaced with "should we meet?" As a Internet dating novice, I suggested to one woman that we exchange phone numbers far too soon. She was highly offended and cut all communication with me immediately. She felt that my forwardness was abrupt and very evasive. We had corresponded via email for weeks... I've asked women that I've known for minutes for their number and did not get a response like that.
The irony is that my grandmother thought it was appalling that a girl would give me her home phone number. In her day, she explained, if a man wanted to court a woman he came to her house and met her parents. The lust-filled couple would sit on the porch or in the family room and talk to one another. If he was truly interested, the man would send letters to the woman, regardless of his proximity to her house. This would go on for a few months and eventually they would jump the broom. She said, "Any hussy that would give you her phone number is not the type of woman you want." Makes me wonder if my grandmother would have been successful on Match.com.

My 2 Lincolns are as follows: Personally, I think women make it too damn hard for a man to court them. I can understand why, but jeez! An attractive young lady should not be forced to entertain every advance towards her but ladies, you need a different weeding out process. Some of the most aggressive men I know in business, sports and other of life's virtues are pussycats when it comes to women. It's as if a woman's vagina (or the lust for it) is the great equalizer. There has to be a better way to decide who is the good guy and who is the psycho deranged idiot. Men who want nothing more than to commit to a woman and truly love her or being cast aside because their game just isn't as strong as a so-called player. I submit this for your pondering ladies -

Wouldn't it behoove you to date a man with no game? Then you know he hasn't been perfecting his craft on every other woman in the world. Practice makes perfect. So how about given the guy that appears to have never spoken to a woman in life a chance... then your chances of being a victim or a notch in someones belt has to be decreased significantly.
Respectfully submitted,
TMASS

That is so stupid !

 

[Dmacho]

I've learned through the years to respect women.

This is the root of the problem for many men that seem to be in your situation. "Respect for women" can cause men to ,in a sense, to fear women, or at least put them on a pedestal; Neither will attract a lot of women and it's this "respect for women" that is the root of the your typical nice guy's problem.

You shouldn't respect, or disrespect a woman that you don't know. You should wait to get to know her to find out whether she deserves your respect, or disrespect.

I certainly don't hear many people urging women to have " respect for men".

 

[Bookworm616]

This is the root of the problem for many men that seem to be in your situation. "Respect for women" can cause men to ,in a sense, to fear women, or at least put them on a pedestal; Neither will attract a lot of women and it's this "respect for women" that is the root of the your typical nice guy's problem.

You shouldn't respect, or disrespect a woman that you don't know. You should wait to get to know her to find out whether she deserves your respect, or disrespect.

I certainly don't hear many people urging women to have " respect for men".

What an interesting thread. Thanks for bringing it back up from the trenches. :smt023

I will agree with you, whether you're interested in someone as a friend or a potential lover, that person should earn your respect through their actions.

However, I think it's more likely that he means, he treats women in a respectful manner, which is a good thing.

I read through this thread, and I have to say, it's a shame that TMass isn't posting anymore. He seems like a nice guy to know.

 

[KingAesop]

This is the root of the problem for many men that seem to be in your situation. "Respect for women" can cause men to ,in a sense, to fear women, or at least put them on a pedestal; Neither will attract a lot of women and it's this "respect for women" that is the root of the your typical nice guy's problem.

You shouldn't respect, or disrespect a woman that you don't know. You should wait to get to know her to find out whether she deserves your respect, or disrespect.

I certainly don't hear many people urging women to have " respect for men".

Brother I couldn't agree with you more! I think that this is part of the reason why people say that chilvary is dead because it makes it hard for the man to determine the line between respect and practicality. As a result, some men throw chilvary out of the window because they feel that being nice and respectful to a woman will hinder his chances of getting with her. Men and women don't communicate like we are suppose to. Communication will bring balance and understanding back to this dilemma; especially amongst young people. It will also help women to learn how to respect a man for being nice to her and not look at it as a sign of weakness. All women don't look at niceness as a sign of weakness though.

 

[FG]

This is the root of the problem for many men that seem to be in your situation. "Respect for women" can cause men to ,in a sense, to fear women, or at least put them on a pedestal; Neither will attract a lot of women and it's this "respect for women" that is the root of the your typical nice guy's problem.

You shouldn't respect, or disrespect a woman that you don't know. You should wait to get to know her to find out whether she deserves your respect, or disrespect.

I certainly don't hear many people urging women to have " respect for men".[/QUOTE]

Really - you hear men urged to respect women but not the other way around??
How odd. I never heard it that way.

Of ocurse it goes both ways.... any mature, reasonable adult knows that. They also know that respect is something you earn (and that you have to give it to recieve it).

Anyone I talk to really dont even put gender to it... get to know somebody and decide if they (wether they are men or women) deserve your respect.

Having that said, you can treat somebody respectfully, without respecting them.

That is what I do, I dont care if you are a woman or a man - even if I dont know you - you deserve common courtesy... that is treating somebody respectfully, adressing them correctly, not be rude, bla bla.
That is what you should do before you decided you respect them, and after.

Even people I dont respect I treat respectfully, because that is on me, not them, that is something I have to own, they can own their own crap.

I think a lot of people confuse the two.

 

[FG]

Brother I couldn't agree with you more! I think that this is part of the reason why people say that chilvary is dead because it makes it hard for the man to determine the line between respect and practicality. As a result, some men throw chilvary out of the window because they feel that being nice and respectful to a woman will hinder his chances of getting with her. Men and women don't communicate like we are suppose to. Communication will bring balance and understanding back to this dilemma; especially amongst young people. It will also help women to learn how to respect a man for being nice to her and not look at it as a sign of weakness. All women don't look at niceness as a sign of weakness though.

Acctually, its not only women that look at kindness as a weakness.. Its equally the same the other way around.

It appears to me that there a lot of these types of complaints about women on this board, but what I find curious, is that you dont see the same complaints comming from the women.

I think a lot of men, somehow forget the fact that the vast majority of problems you are complaining about in regards to women is reversible.
We complain about the exact s a m e stuff as men..
Most issues brought up here are human issues, not female issues or male issues.. such as this one.

(Disclaimer: Clearly there are stuff that are gender specific)


Men take kindness in women as a sign weakness ALL the time.
Trust me on that one.

 

[Dmacho]

What an interesting thread. Thanks for bringing it back up from the trenches. :smt023

I will agree with you, whether you're interested in someone as a friend or a potential lover, that person should earn your respect through their actions.

However, I think it's more likely that he means, he treats women in a respectful manner, which is a good thing.

I read through this thread, and I have to say, it's a shame that TMass isn't posting anymore. He seems like a nice guy to know.

Being polite is a good thing, but many men are taught as boys to hold women in general to a higher esteem. They're taught to look at every woman like they mother or sisters, which is impractical and naive.

I was one of them.

 

[FG]

Being polite is a good thing, but many men are taught as boys to hold women in general to a higher esteem. They're taught to look at every woman like they mother or sisters, which is impractical and naive.

I was one of them.

How is it impractical? I dont get that?

I think it makes complete sense to strive to treat women like you would want your sister/mother/daughter to be treated.... Now, it doesnt always work out like that, but you can strive for it.

The same should go for women: to treat men as youwould treat your dad/brother/son.

I dont get why the godlen rule is so hard. I live it every day - do I fail? Hell yes, we are human, but its a good rule to try to adhere to.

btw - kudos to Dmacho for bringing up a very good thread!

 

[wtarshi]

Brother I couldn't agree with you more! I think that this is part of the reason why people say that chilvary is dead because it makes it hard for the man to determine the line between respect and practicality. As a result, some men throw chilvary out of the window because they feel that being nice and respectful to a woman will hinder his chances of getting with her. Men and women don't communicate like we are suppose to. Communication will bring balance and understanding back to this dilemma; especially amongst young people. It will also help women to learn how to respect a man for being nice to her and not look at it as a sign of weakness. All women don't look at niceness as a sign of weakness though.

well i've been taught to respect people regardless of what sex they are, and have never looked at a man being nice to me as a sign of weakness. i can't for the life of me think of what could possibly be wrong with it.

 

[Dmacho]

This is the root of the problem for many men that seem to be in your situation. "Respect for women" can cause men to ,in a sense, to fear women, or at least put them on a pedestal; Neither will attract a lot of women and it's this "respect for women" that is the root of the your typical nice guy's problem.

You shouldn't respect, or disrespect a woman that you don't know. You should wait to get to know her to find out whether she deserves your respect, or disrespect.

I certainly don't hear many people urging women to have " respect for men".[/QUOTE]

Really - you hear men urged to respect women but not the other way around??
How odd. I never heard it that way.

Of ocurse it goes both ways.... any mature, reasonable adult knows that. They also know that respect is something you earn (and that you have to give it to recieve it).

Anyone I talk to really dont even put gender to it... get to know somebody and decide if they (wether they are men or women) deserve your respect.

Having that said, you can treat somebody respectfully, without respecting them.

That is what I do, I dont care if you are a woman or a man - even if I dont know you - you deserve common courtesy... that is treating somebody respectfully, adressing them correctly, not be rude, bla bla.
That is what you should do before you decided you respect them, and after.

Even people I dont respect I treat respectfully, because that is on me, not them, that is something I have to own, they can own their own crap.

I think a lot of people confuse the two.

I can't tell if the bolded part of your post is sarcastic or not, but no, I never hear people urging women to have respect for men.

People should be "polite", but that has nothing to do with respect. When boys are taught to respect women, it's almost as if we're supposed treat them as if they were our mothers, aunts or sisters.

When women treat men badly, play games, give them the run around, you usually don't hear things like " what if somebody treated you father or brother like that". Lol, it sounds silly when saying or writing it.

You definitely hear that the other way around.

 

[Espy]

I can't tell if the bolded part of your post is sarcastic or not, but no, I never hear people urging women to have respect for men.

People should be "polite", but that has nothing to do with respect. When boys are taught to respect women, it's almost as if we're supposed treat them as if they were our mothers, aunts or sisters.

When women treat men badly, play games, give them the run around, you usually don't hear things like " what if somebody treated you father or brother like that". Lol, it sounds silly when saying or writing it.

You definitely hear that the other way around.

That's a good point. I cannot count the number of times I have heard someone say 'would you treat your mother like that' to a man, but I have never heard the reverse, not one time. I personally don't use either, I prefer 'is that how you'd like someone to treat you?' If not then you need to straighten up. I approach everyone with respect, and I continue to respect them until they give me a reason not to.

 

[FG]

I can't tell if the bolded part of your post is sarcastic or not, but no, I never hear people urging women to have respect for men.

People should be "polite", but that has nothing to do with respect. When boys are taught to respect women, it's almost as if we're supposed treat them as if they were our mothers, aunts or sisters.

When women treat men badly, play games, give them the run around, you usually don't hear things like " what if somebody treated you father or brother like that". Lol, it sounds silly when saying or writing it.

You definitely hear that the other way around.

No, no sarcasm.. The first bold line is yours, not mine.The second is mine and what I was trying to say is that I never heard that its only men that is urged to respect the oposite sex.


When it is said that you should treat women like they are your sister etc, I think it today is mostly refered to "use them sexually" (at least that is how my cirlce interpret it today).

The old way is course different. Clearly it is not said the other way around because women to a much lesser extent fool men into sex and use them for sex. The saying is oldfashioned and dates back to the time when women did not approcah men, but sat road side as shy little flowers (grin) and waited for the man to court. Then it had an entirely different meaning as women really were not equal but pretty much only on the recieveing end on everyting.

On the other hand, something you forget - is the old fashioned marriage vows,.. there, the woman was, and am still to a large part today - told to respect and obey... the male marriage vows do not include this. Ergo, they werent expected to reciprocate on that point. See, the issue is not as simple as you first stated.

So to put what you are discussing in context, yes women have always been taught to respect men. Respect is dwindling in both side of the gender spectrum. We are getting more selfish and it does not apply to one gender more than the other.


Like I said in another post - if you strive to treat women as respectfully as you would your sister etc - even if you fail. Youre pretty well off. And of course that goes for women as well... Just a version of the golden rule, no more no less - to me at least.

I just wish more people in general adhered to it.

 

[Dmacho]

Acctually, its not only women that look at kindness as a weakness.. Its equally the same the other way around.

It appears to me that there a lot of these types of complaints about women on this board, but what I find curious, is that you dont see the same complaints comming from the women.

I think a lot of men, somehow forget the fact that the vast majority of problems you are complaining about in regards to women is reversible.
We complain about the exact s a m e stuff as men..
Most issues brought up here are human issues, not female issues or male issues.. such as this one.

(Disclaimer: Clearly there are stuff that are gender specific)


Men take kindness in women as a sign weakness ALL the time.
Trust me on that one.

"Weakness" isn't necessarily a turn off of men; it is for women. Men are attracted to submissiveness. Being weak is being submissive in a sense, so it usually isn't an obstacle for women when trying to meet men. Women aren't attracted to submissiveness. They're attracted dominance which comes in many forms : confidence, money, height, muscles are all forms of dominance.

Women who keep going back to men who treat them like trash, do so because it turns them on. If a man continually treats a woman like crap, he's in a dominant position in relation to her.

 

[FG]

"Weakness" isn't necessarily a turn off of men; it is for women. Men are attracted to submissiveness. Being weak is being submissive in a sense, so it usually isn't an obstacle for women when trying to meet men. Women aren't attracted to submissiveness. They're attracted dominance which comes in many forms : confidence, money, height, muscles are all forms of dominance.

Women who keep going back to men who treat them like trash, do so because it turns them on. If a man continually treats a woman like crap, he's in a dominant position in relation to her.

Yes, but then you are talking about men that dont use women (just regular good men).... women that dont use men (just regular good women)would not look at kindness as a weakness.


If you talk about men and women that do tend to take advantage - that is another group of people. In this group:

Men often take advantage of something they look at as weakness when it comes to women. As in taking kindness for weakness.
I often run into that... when you meet someone in the beginning and they dont know you - often do I see men taking my kindness and patience as weakness and I see how they try to use it (like getting into my panst or just abusing my kindness). It happens all the time.

Disclaimer: I dont let men use me, I see it comming, but let them prove me right first and then, they are out. I dont date doushes like that. I want a kind man.

Perhaps women and men abuse this differently?
Women trying to get the men to run circles, paying dinners, buying gifts and so on. And men, sex and trying to get stuff on the side...
We are driven differently.

But we equally tend to take kindness for weakness.

I hate it.
If you are kind, I will respect that - and I cant take advantage of anyone, my concious is not big enough.

 

[Espy]

"Weakness" isn't necessarily a turn off of men; it is for women. Men are attracted to submissiveness. Being weak is being submissive in a sense, so it usually isn't an obstacle for women when trying to meet men. Women aren't attracted to submissiveness. They're attracted dominance which comes in many forms : confidence, money, height, muscles are all forms of dominance.

Women who keep going back to men who treat them like trash, do so because it turns them on. If a man continually treats a woman like crap, he's in a dominant position in relation to her.

Nope he's out the door. There are women who tolerate that, but they tend to be the one's with really low self-esteem. Women don't get treated like shit because they're drawn to dominance and it turns them on, they get treated like shit because they allow it.

There is a difference between weakness, submissiveness, and being shy and respectful. If a woman isn't smart enough to tell the difference, then that's her loss.

I will agree with you that people are drawn to confident people, not necessarily because they view that as dominant, but more because it's a quality the majority of people don't appear to display very often. But while men may be attracted to confidence in a woman, in my experience they do choose the submissive women for relationships, or at least appear to prefer that type. I don't know if they want the control, or if they like having someone that clingy, needy and dependent. Maybe all of the afore mentioned are appealing to other people, but not to me.

 

[Dmacho]

No, no sarcasm.. The first bold line is yours, not mine.The second is mine and what I was trying to say is that I never heard that its only men that is urged to respect the oposite sex.


When it is said that you should treat women like they are your sister etc, I think it today is mostly refered to "use them sexually" (at least that is how my cirlce interpret it today).

The old way is course different. Clearly it is not said the other way around because women to a much lesser extent fool men into sex and use them for sex. The saying is oldfashioned and dates back to the time when women did not approcah men, but sat road side as shy little flowers (grin) and waited for the man to court. Then it had an entirely different meaning as women really were not equal but pretty much only on the recieveing end on everyting.

On the other hand, something you forget - is the old fashioned marriage vows,.. there, the woman was, and am still to a large part today - told to respect and obey... the male marriage vows do not include this. Ergo, they werent expected to reciprocate on that point. See, the issue is not as simple as you first stated.

So to put what you are discussing in context, yes women have always been taught to respect men. Respect is dwindling in both side of the gender spectrum. We are getting more selfish and it does not apply to one gender more than the other.


Like I said in another post - if you strive to treat women as respectfully as you would your sister etc - even if you fail. You're pretty well off. And of course that goes for women as well... Just a version of the golden rule, no more no less - to me at least.

I just wish more people in general adhered to it.

Those are just wedding vows that are read at the wedding ceremony. I see what you're saying, but it's a little different when you're told to respect women from from childhood to adulthood. My take on it is: society is more concerned with "warning" women about men rather then telling them to respect them(men).

I don't strive to treat anybody, men or women, like they're my relatives until they've earned it.

 

[Athena]

But while men may be attracted to confidence in a woman, in my experience they do choose the submissive women for relationships, or at least appear to prefer that type.

I agree with this observation Espy. My ex told me that my confidence and independence was a huge turn on for him initially but he grew to hate it. Yes he used the word "hate".

 

[Bookworm616]

Nope he's out the door. There are women who tolerate that, but they tend to be the one's with really low self-esteem. Women don't get treated like shit because they're drawn to dominance and it turns them on, they get treated like shit because they allow it.

This is so true. But it doesn't just refer to women. There are lots of men out there who have incredibly low self-esteem who allow women to walk all over them and dominate their lives.

People who allow themselves to be treated like crap are in a vicious cycle that they've probably been exposed to for most of their lives and they don't feel they deserve to be treated any better and they probably feel "lucky" that the other person wants to be with them, so they allow themselves to be doormats.

They suffer from very low self-esteem, self-confidence, self-reliance, everything related to self.

 

[FG]

Those are just wedding vows that are read at the wedding ceremony. I see what you're saying, but it's a little different when you're told to respect women from from childhood to adulthood. My take on it is: society is more concerned with "warning" women about men rather then telling them to respect them(men).

I don't strive to treat anybody, men or women, like they're my relatives until they've earned it.

That is true,
I was just trying to make a point.
Both the marriage vow and the "treat women as you treat your mom etc" stems far back, and we were taught to respect the other sex on different levels.
The marriage vow to day is just a saying, not too long ago, it was not.

Warning, oh yes, women are taught that very much so....but that is the random guy. Not the guy in your life.

I think today we have come to a point where respect is taught on a more universal level.
I cant talk about the 20 something at all (grin).
But I was taught to respect everybody. My mother made sure I treaded boyfriends right - when I was younger and she saw stuff I did, she would tell me that that wasnt correct behavior and why. Much of it translated to all human beings but lots of it was also more of "if he was your husband and he did the same to you" type deal.

 

[Dmacho]

Nope he's out the door. There are women who tolerate that, but they tend to be the one's with really low self-esteem. Women don't get treated like shit because they're drawn to dominance and it turns them on, they get treated like shit because they allow it.

There is a difference between weakness, submissiveness, and being shy and respectful. If a woman isn't smart enough to tell the difference, then that's her loss.

I will agree with you that people are drawn to confident people, not necessarily because they view that as dominant, but more because it's a quality the majority of people don't appear to display very often. But while men may be attracted to confidence in a woman, in my experience they do choose the submissive women for relationships, or at least appear to prefer that type. I don't know if they want the control, or if they like having someone that clingy, needy and dependent. Maybe all of the afore mentioned are appealing to other people, but not to me.

You would throw the man out because you're not attracted to that type of dominance. It comes in different forms. Some women are indifferent to dominance, just as some men could care less if a woman is submissive. It's rare for a woman to be attracted to submissiveness; just as it's rare for man to be attracted to dominance.

We're sort getting off track. I just brought up all the dominance/submissive talk to point out that while people in general mistake kindness for weakness, that perceived weakness is more of a turn off for women than men. Which is why you hear men about it a lot more.