Power and control are two different things. The person in control does not directly have to touch the victim because The person in control knows how to manipulate the victim. Power over victims occurs during and after the event. Think back to when someone said," If you tell , you're in big trouble." The person in control has the knowledge to manipulate the situation to his/her advantage. It is blackmail and intimidation. And, sadly, it becomes a dark chapter in the victim's life.
Josh Duggar of TLC’s 19 Kids and Counting admits to molestation
- Thread starter 4north1side2
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Power and control are two different things. The person in control does not directly have to touch the victim because The person in control knows how to manipulate the victim. Power over victims occurs during and after the event. Think back to when someone said," If you tell , you're in big trouble." The person in control has the knowledge to manipulate the situation to his/her advantage. It is blackmail and intimidation. And, sadly, it becomes a dark chapter in the victim's life.
K
Well-Known Member
[FONT="]excellent post!
I will tell you (as a survivor) that one of the most difficult things ever is living with oneself when they have not reported....and even further living with it all once it's been reported but discounted, dismissed, or "too late".
First, victims have to come to the realization of the truth of what has happened. Especially in situations like this one (and by taking a look at some of what the family taught) the girls may still not even be aware of the extent of what their brother did was. It often takes the victim getting away from the environment for a period of time and feeling safe for things to come out. Many have PTSD and deal with all sorts of horrendous after effects. They have most likely blamed themselves (along with the rest of the folks in their environment blaming them), and gone through all sorts of mental trips regarding the validity of what has happened. Then they have to be strong enough to be able to say something and keep saying something until someone listens, believes, and will help them in some way.
As much as I don't agree with North about soooo many things. I really think what he did by saying something about the abuse he knew about, was a great thing. I say this even though he had to deal with terrible fall out from the victim. In the long run, it will probably be something that she will be very grateful for....one day.
I was 27 before I had someone in my life who clearly said what happened to me was WRONG and stood up for me. Until then I was made to think that things couldn't have been that bad and so forth. To be fair, I certainly had never told anyone the Full extent of things. There were some things that were out in the open and I was made to think that I just had "issues" or maybe was too "prudish" or "sexually repressed", etc. I had been in therapy for years too. It wasn't until I had a friend who said something and I went to a therapist who specialized in abuse/molestation that things changed. It was a very long difficult process. During which, I had some friends from high school tell me that they had known things, or even been approached and abused. And yes, I felt like it was my fault because they were my friends.
I contacted the police, attorneys, church leaders (they had become big in some church) and all sorts of other people.
I think too in some of these cases it can be very difficult to understand the power (thanks Gorath) and how far reaching the control can be. I was sure things were all my fault and I was terrified for years after.
And be clear, no one would have known. Many victims over compensate and become over achievers.[/FONT]
K
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I apologize. Just because he likes to insult, doesn't mean I need to do the same.
Beasty
Well-Known Member
Respect
4north1side2
Well-Known Member
You know what, I'm sorry. This is an very touchy subject for me and my emotions got the best of me. Everyone has made excellent points and hopefully everyone took away something positive from this thread. My heart weeps heavy for all survivors.
K
Well-Known Member
Thanks North, I appreciate that.
Here's the thing....it's true it sparks all sorts of emotions and upset and you know what? that's a GREAT thing! Something has to be done about all this shit going on!!! It's not going to change UNLESS people get upset and start doing something about it.
4north1side2
Well-Known Member
Also consider going against an survivors wish can completely wreck their lives for the worse. Families split apart, people you love most don't fuck with you no more, people lose they jobs and struggle to get by, the place you call home no longer is home children are sent to group homes where even worse abuse happen daily by multiple predators.
I'm not saying theirs a right or wrong way when it comes to speaking up for the survivor, your heart and mind means well but please put some thought into your action before you act to make yourself feel good about yourself.
Satchmo
New Member
The ONLY story here for me is possible unequal treatment under the law. Sex abuse against minors is as common as white bread. Non prosecution (criminally) of offenders is as likely as peanut butter. BUT! In most states, as soon a victim (irrespective of present-day minor status) discloses, child protective services would remove all minor children in the care and custody of the accused and said children considered at imminent risk of harm pending investigation and subsequent treatment of alleged perpetrator if allegations are founded. This has no statute of limitations. Minors in the care and custody of Josh's parents are also removed on grounds of allegations "failure to protect." ALL MINOR CHILDREN of not only Josh but those who failed to notify authorities and protect minors from further abuse are removed into state custody the moment the allegations surface. Period. If, upon investigation and civil court finding, the sex abuse allegations are founded by a judge, then any and all minor children are returned into the custody (and overnight unsupervised sleeping arrangements resumed) with the perpetrator AND those children of the "accomplices" (persons found to have 'failed to protect' - i.e. the duggar grandparents) ONLY after the State is satisfied that treatment is complete by not only the perp but all who failed to protect. In other words, it's not just about the victims, but the potential victims. In other words, why are the children sleeping in the home of Josh today not presently at risk of immediate harm? Moreover, any minor children presently in custody/unsupervised arrangements with the Dugger grandparents are at risk of immediate harm for their failure to protect other historic victims. This is the harsh stance of the State that I live in and I presume not far from that of every other state. Criminally, the family may be immune thanks to the statute of limitations, but in most states, criminal charges are never really a viable threat anyway. The true and present danger of families caught up in this situation is removal of ALL MINORS - not only the child victims - because the state typically views all children, pending investigation and, pending outcome of investigation, as potential victims - and therefore subject to removal into foster care until their safety care be secured. I didn't follow this Dugger story closely, but are they suggesting Josh Dugger perped on his siblings? If that is the case, then the state would consider his own children at risk -- and would take them. I suggest to you that a fair portion of the 300K+ children in your state's custody are in foster care due to this exact same fact scenario. It's as common as white bread.
Which begs the question for me ...why have the Dugger's received special treatment? Obviously I'm not privy to their state's child protective services investigative reports, so I can't judge their decisions. But I will tell you this: if they were poor nobodys in any state in this nation ...
I ask you this: why is any child presently living in Josh's household not at immediate risk of harm? Why is any child presently spending the night in Josh's parents household not at risk of harm due to their failure to protect prior children? In other words, how can we say that the grandparent Duggers can be trusted to protect minors living/visiting in their care TONIGHT? Why should society be reassured they'll "do the right thing" tomorrow when their granddaughter discloses abuse to them in the morning?
Bottom line is this: in my state (and presumably most others) Josh's own children would be taken by the state under temporary ex parte order because it can't be said of this moment that he is not a risk to them, and that his wife can be trusted to protect them, AND minor children in the care and control of his parents (the grandparents) would also be taken by the state (on grounds of failure to protect), pending investigation and until it could be confirmed that the are safe. such a scenario is commonplace amongst us common folk ... But not for this family? That's what's disturbing to me.
That some white dude perped on kids is soooooo not news to me. That the law hasn't intervened in any way to protect potential victims tonight with this particular family is curious. Cause I've defended parents accused of this same thing hundreds of times, and believe me, "the law" comes busting in and swoops the kids away on less than this. But not for the Duggers .....
That's the real story for me.
Which begs the question for me ...why have the Dugger's received special treatment? Obviously I'm not privy to their state's child protective services investigative reports, so I can't judge their decisions. But I will tell you this: if they were poor nobodys in any state in this nation ...
I ask you this: why is any child presently living in Josh's household not at immediate risk of harm? Why is any child presently spending the night in Josh's parents household not at risk of harm due to their failure to protect prior children? In other words, how can we say that the grandparent Duggers can be trusted to protect minors living/visiting in their care TONIGHT? Why should society be reassured they'll "do the right thing" tomorrow when their granddaughter discloses abuse to them in the morning?
Bottom line is this: in my state (and presumably most others) Josh's own children would be taken by the state under temporary ex parte order because it can't be said of this moment that he is not a risk to them, and that his wife can be trusted to protect them, AND minor children in the care and control of his parents (the grandparents) would also be taken by the state (on grounds of failure to protect), pending investigation and until it could be confirmed that the are safe. such a scenario is commonplace amongst us common folk ... But not for this family? That's what's disturbing to me.
That some white dude perped on kids is soooooo not news to me. That the law hasn't intervened in any way to protect potential victims tonight with this particular family is curious. Cause I've defended parents accused of this same thing hundreds of times, and believe me, "the law" comes busting in and swoops the kids away on less than this. But not for the Duggers .....
That's the real story for me.
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http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/30/us/politics/hastert-indictment.html?referrer=&_r=0
another conservative is busted for sexual misconduct
another conservative is busted for sexual misconduct
Peach State Scholar
Well-Known Member
Yep, that's exactly it. He allegedly (heh) did it when he was 14 or 15 and his sisters were 4 or 5, which is way past the age of playing doctor or just mere sexual curioisity, especially with the age difference between him and his victims. He allegedly (double heh) molested some other girls as well but I'm not entirely sure how old they were compared to Josh.
Of course, for his parents to actually do something about it would jeopardize the money from the TV show and we obviously can't have that.
Soulthinker
Well-Known Member
Also,the records of that investigation was destroyed. Very fishy.
4north1side2
Well-Known Member
Jessa: Josh Duggar was ‘in puberty and a little too curious about girls’
Jessa Seewald detailed the sexual abuse she and sister Jill Dillard experienced at the hands of their older brother Josh Duggar in a sit-down interview with Megyn Kelly on "The Kelly File" Friday night.
Seewald explained: “…I can speak out and I can say this and set the record straight here. Like in Josh’s case, he was a boy, a young boy in puberty and a little too curious about girls. And that got him into some trouble. And he made some bad choices, but really the extent of it was mild, inappropriate touching, on fully clothed victims, most of it while girls were sleeping”
Dillard and Seewald were adamant that they were unaware of what their brother had done to them until he confessed to their parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, prompting their parents to speak to them about their brother’s behavior.
“It wasn’t like we were keeping a secret afraid or something. We didn’t know until Josh explained to my parents what his thought process was, what everything was…” Dillard said, repeating the point her parents made on their exclusive sit down with Kelly, which aired Wednesday.
Click here to subscribe to FOX411’s YouTube channel
The sisters said their parents spoke to each child individually about what their brother had done.
“So for me even when my parents came and sat down and told me this, I was like, ‘really?’ Like you know I’m sad. I’m shocked at the same time… I’m sad because this is my older brother, who I love a lot, and so it’s like, conflicting there,” Dillard recalled.
She said her brother asked each of the girls he inappropriately touched for forgiveness.
“…I was angry at first, I was like, ‘how could this happen?’ And then, you know, my parents explained to us what happened and then Josh came and asked each of us, individually I know, he asked me to forgive him. And I had to make that choice to forgive him, you know. And it wasn’t something that somebody forced like, ‘Oh you need to do this. It’s like, you have to make that decision for yourself.”
After Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar became aware of abuse, they told Kelly they put safeguards in place in their home. Dillard said their parents added locks to the doors in their home.
Dillard said the safeguards included rules like, “You know, everybody’s in bed. Girls in the girl’s room. Boys in the boy’s room. And so yeah, they just, and as a mother now I look back and I think you know my parents did such an amazing job for me.”
Seewald said the Duggars are being judged, especially since they are known for their strong Christian beliefs, but they are a family “with challenges and struggles just like anybody else.”
“It’s right to say ‘here’s what I believe, here’s my values,’ even if you’ve made stupid mistakes or failures,” Seewald said. “If you’ve had failures in your past it doesn’t mean you can’t be changed. I think that’s where, I think the real issue is people are making this sound like it happened yesterday.”
Jessa Seewald detailed the sexual abuse she and sister Jill Dillard experienced at the hands of their older brother Josh Duggar in a sit-down interview with Megyn Kelly on "The Kelly File" Friday night.
Seewald explained: “…I can speak out and I can say this and set the record straight here. Like in Josh’s case, he was a boy, a young boy in puberty and a little too curious about girls. And that got him into some trouble. And he made some bad choices, but really the extent of it was mild, inappropriate touching, on fully clothed victims, most of it while girls were sleeping”
Dillard and Seewald were adamant that they were unaware of what their brother had done to them until he confessed to their parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, prompting their parents to speak to them about their brother’s behavior.
“It wasn’t like we were keeping a secret afraid or something. We didn’t know until Josh explained to my parents what his thought process was, what everything was…” Dillard said, repeating the point her parents made on their exclusive sit down with Kelly, which aired Wednesday.
Click here to subscribe to FOX411’s YouTube channel
The sisters said their parents spoke to each child individually about what their brother had done.
“So for me even when my parents came and sat down and told me this, I was like, ‘really?’ Like you know I’m sad. I’m shocked at the same time… I’m sad because this is my older brother, who I love a lot, and so it’s like, conflicting there,” Dillard recalled.
She said her brother asked each of the girls he inappropriately touched for forgiveness.
“…I was angry at first, I was like, ‘how could this happen?’ And then, you know, my parents explained to us what happened and then Josh came and asked each of us, individually I know, he asked me to forgive him. And I had to make that choice to forgive him, you know. And it wasn’t something that somebody forced like, ‘Oh you need to do this. It’s like, you have to make that decision for yourself.”
After Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar became aware of abuse, they told Kelly they put safeguards in place in their home. Dillard said their parents added locks to the doors in their home.
Dillard said the safeguards included rules like, “You know, everybody’s in bed. Girls in the girl’s room. Boys in the boy’s room. And so yeah, they just, and as a mother now I look back and I think you know my parents did such an amazing job for me.”
Seewald said the Duggars are being judged, especially since they are known for their strong Christian beliefs, but they are a family “with challenges and struggles just like anybody else.”
“It’s right to say ‘here’s what I believe, here’s my values,’ even if you’ve made stupid mistakes or failures,” Seewald said. “If you’ve had failures in your past it doesn’t mean you can’t be changed. I think that’s where, I think the real issue is people are making this sound like it happened yesterday.”
K
Well-Known Member
I was just watching something more about this the other day. There was something about a new police report coming out. I think there was a lot to what Satchmo said and it's being looked at much more.
At least one of the girls was only 5 years old. Josh confessed to his parents at least 3 separate times (the parents stated this on an interview) He went past the "safeguards" the parents set (locks on the doors). On one report they are saying it happened over the clothing and when they were asleep, but another report talks about how he did things when they would be watching tv and he did things under the clothing. There is a lot of confusion, which is not surprising given that things were kept under wraps for some time. Details of stories change.
They clearly waited until the statute of limitations were up in their state, etc.
I'm not surprised the girls are identifying with and protecting the abuser. That's what usually happens. Not to mention they have been raised in an environment that protects defends minimizes and forgives such behavior. The people that they would turn to (church leaders, officers they knew, etc) are out doing the same stuff. Then the parents are held up as celebrities and put up on a pedestal in their community.....how could the girls possibly have the courage to even think any differently.
At least one of the girls was only 5 years old. Josh confessed to his parents at least 3 separate times (the parents stated this on an interview) He went past the "safeguards" the parents set (locks on the doors). On one report they are saying it happened over the clothing and when they were asleep, but another report talks about how he did things when they would be watching tv and he did things under the clothing. There is a lot of confusion, which is not surprising given that things were kept under wraps for some time. Details of stories change.
They clearly waited until the statute of limitations were up in their state, etc.
I'm not surprised the girls are identifying with and protecting the abuser. That's what usually happens. Not to mention they have been raised in an environment that protects defends minimizes and forgives such behavior. The people that they would turn to (church leaders, officers they knew, etc) are out doing the same stuff. Then the parents are held up as celebrities and put up on a pedestal in their community.....how could the girls possibly have the courage to even think any differently.
4north1side2
Well-Known Member
:smt010
I so wish you were wrong but sadly you are right...
I wanted to believe everything went down exactly as they said but I just read some more after what you said. Duggar was slowly turning into a full blown sexual predator and was conscious of that, he went to his Dad 3 times about it but the dad totally let his family down over and over and over again.
Maybe the Father believe he had it handled the first time, then tried some different the next before deciding outside help is what's best for everyone after the 3rd time Josh came crying.
free816
New Member
I watched the 1st interview and couldn't stomach the 2nd,, they lied over and over again rehearsed bs, the poor young girls ,, this is probably what Darren sharper was doing at 14 , he is a predator albeit white wholesome Christian conservative ,, people started raising funds to free Ted bundy way back when
Ol'Skool Classic
Well-Known Member
Why is it unbelievable? The Duggers are exactly the type of people that they cater to and identify with. People who think that their morals and how they view the world are some blue print that everyone else should be on board with.
I watched one of the interviews and about threw up listening to the mother...she was saying that they stopped letting the boys babysit the girls, girls couldn't sit on the boys laps, no playing hide and seek...
WTF?? message does this send to the other boys in the family...she just kept trying to make it sound like they took matters into their own hands as parents and solved the problem
they failed all the kids...
WTF?? message does this send to the other boys in the family...she just kept trying to make it sound like they took matters into their own hands as parents and solved the problemthey failed all the kids...
I watched one of the interviews and about threw up listening to the mother...she was saying that they stopped letting the boys babysit the girls, girls couldn't sit on the boys laps, no playing hide and seek...
they failed all the kids...
The also designed the house that they built after they found out about what Josh was doing to keep him from molesting his sisters when it would have made much more sense to put him in treatment or in kiddie prison.
