Random Political comments...

My future depends on innovation what the hell are you even talking about?

All I said was Bernie used a poor choice of words then you started smoking.

The other thing I did was point to real economic principles. *Which you reject the very basics* Seems as if you have actually chosen your emotions which goes more in line with politics as a whole. Good on you. I'll stick with schools of logical thought. Especially when they have proven to be relevant in the real world.

Yes or no dude

Is there a free lunch in economics?
That's an over simplistic question the more reality based question is do we choose which costs we want to socialize and which ones we privatize. No college and healthcare won't be free but we can choose to trade labor hours that are taxed to go to that instead of a hyper inflated military budget or more corporate welfare where companies that earn billions get a tax cut.

So my question to you is do you think we can choose a better path or is everything set in stone?
 
That's an over simplistic question the more reality based question is do we choose which costs we want to socialize and which ones we privatize. No college and healthcare won't be free but we can choose to trade labor hours that are taxed to go to that instead of a hyper inflated military budget or more corporate welfare where companies that earn billions get a tax cut.

So my question to you is do you think we can choose a better path or is everything set in stone?
Of course there is a better path. I don't claim to be perfect, but I don't approach a problem with emotion or bias. I learned to be patient only so I could further disconnect from emotion for problem solving. We can clean the shit up but I want the optimum result. Not the result that's going to just make people happy for the meantime, because they are ignorant to the real costs.

The question is not overly simplistic. Its a question. If you can't answer it, how can you answer the more complex ones.
 
Of course there is a better path. I don't claim to be perfect, but I don't approach a problem with emotion or bias. I learned to be patient only so I could further disconnect from emotion for problem solving. We can clean the shit up but I want the optimum result. Not the result that's going to just make people happy for the meantime, because they are ignorant to the real costs.

The question is not overly simplistic. Its a question. If you can't answer it, how can you answer the more complex ones.
I ultimately asked if anything was truly for free and I think I did a job of answering that. I also didn't answer with emotional bias, it was pretty pragmatic. It comes down how we CHOOSE to spend our resources, relative to our GDP we can absolutely pay for college for all and healthcare. As a society we chose to give everyone 12 years of free education why can't we do 2 to 4 years more? It's not like the money doesn't exist we just choose to spend it on military ordinances that sit in a warehouse becoming obsolete. We spend the money on tax cuts for people who don't need it and then ship jobs abroad.
Seriously what am I missing?
 
I ultimately asked if anything was truly for free and I think I did a job of answering that. I also didn't answer with emotional bias, it was pretty pragmatic. It comes down how we CHOOSE to spend our resources, relative to our GDP we can absolutely pay for college for all and healthcare. As a society we chose to give everyone 12 years of free education why can't we do 2 to 4 years more? It's not like the money doesn't exist we just choose to spend it on military ordinances that sit in a warehouse becoming obsolete. We spend the money on tax cuts for people who don't need it and then ship jobs abroad.
Seriously what am I missing?
I agree that we should cut the military budget and allocate more funds to state colleges. You want to make it completely free. For the most part I want to lower the tuition costs across the country to a level comparable to the south east until I see some evidence that a "free" college model can work the way the advocates like you envision it.

In other words. From what I have learned about the real word models: they don't work the way you envision them to be.

"As a society if we can give 12 free years of education why not 4 more"


Really??

Because those 12 free years sucked ass Carlton.
 
I didn't go to high school in Cleveland but while I was living there the got damn roof of a high school caved in. Lucky no one died.

Yeah 4 "free" years of that shit. Can't wait.
 
I agree that we should cut the military budget and allocate more funds to state colleges. You want to make it completely free. For the most part I want to lower the tuition costs across the country to a level comparable to the south east until I see some evidence that a "free" college model can work the way the advocates like you envision it.

In other words. From what I have learned about the real word models: they don't work the way you envision them to be.

"As a society if we can give 12 free years of education why not 4 more"


Really??

Because those 12 free years sucked ass Carlton.
Depends on the area I guess. Schools are good where I like but I also pay around 13k in property taxes. You gotta any examples where free college doesn't work. I'm open to learning
 
Depends on the area I guess. Schools are good where I like but I also pay around 13k in property taxes. You gotta any examples where free college doesn't work. I'm open to learning
Its not that it doesn't work, just not the way its usually envisioned. If you have any free time take a look at the French system. One of My French professors went to college there. There are many differences, and probably so throughout Europe. Do people here really want that? Is the question I ask.
 
I agree Beasty. One thing some people don't think about when arguing about politics is that sometimes people wouldn't want a policy even if you could prove to them that it "worked."

For instance, even if you could show people that switching the entire country to automated cars would massively reduce fatalities on the road, some people would still resist because they want to drive their own cars. The point is that there is more to politics than "this works" or "this doesn't work" because humans are not perfect robots that do whatever is most efficient.
 
https://twitter.com/ShaneRyanHere/status/900732842853924864
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https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...st-smear-the-five-steps-liberals-take-to.html
In recent weeks, a controversy has popped up pitting the centrist #Resistance and progressive wings of the Democratic party against each other. This iteration of what has become a common battle regards a rising star of the establishment Democratic party—Kamala Harris, junior senator from California. Although the recent debate on Harris is relatively new, sparked by an article from The Week by Ryan Cooper titled “Why Leftists Don’t Trust Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, and Deval Patrick,” it’s only the newest incarnation of a toxic dynamic that has been in full swing since 2016, where the two sides do battle over whether leftist critique of certain politicians is proof that the critics are racist, misogynist, or both. No matter how specific and policy-oriented the left’s critiques are, a certain class of liberals will never let the debate be about policy. This piece is an attempt to explain their tactics, and outline a strategy for overcoming them.

Typically, there are five steps to the centrist smear.

Step One: Define the Enemy as a White Male, Erase All Others

First, the leftists making the critiques are depicted by liberals as being almost exclusively white, male, and (often) privileged. The most popular method for carrying this out is the coining and weaponizing of the term “Bernie Bros.” Sometimes (white) female Bernie supporters are begrudgingly acknowledged, only to be dismissed as traitors suffering from “internalized misogyny,” or as flighty young singles supporting Sanders because that’s where the boys are—as Gloria Steinem, among others, claimed. Leftists of color, however, are rarely acknowledged even begrudgingly, and are often ignored outright in an act of erasure.

Step Two: Define the Leftist Motivation as Racist/Misogynist/Etc.

The second tactic of centrist liberals is to portray these supposedly exclusively white, male leftists as being solely motivated by misogyny and racism in their criticisms of women and minority politicians. They tend to do this by ignoring, minimizing or outright dismissing any policy criticisms leveled against these politicians, and by claiming that these female and or minority politicians are being held to a higher standard of purity testing than their white, male counterparts.

Step Three: Present Identity Politics and Class Politics as a Zero-Sum Game

Step three from the centrist playbook is to maintain that identity politics are being thrown under the bus in favor of class-only politics—regardless of the substantive policy and character critiques put forth. Many #Resistance-style liberals have a very narrow definition of good identity politics that only allows for superficial diversity in the form of representation optics. For example, a board of directors of a corporation may exploit its black workers and run abusive third-world sweatshops and practice environmental racism, but as long as that board has a proportionate number of women and minorities, the liberal idea of identity politics is usually satisfied. Therefore, even if the critique against a minority or woman candidate is for an action that disproportionately targeted black people—expanding the prison-industrial complex by locking up black men at an increased rate, for example—centrists perpetually claim that the greater crime to the marginalized group is the fact that anyone dares to criticize a politician from that group. Even when that minority candidate is being criticized for a policy that hurts minorities and women, the lie must be maintained—criticism of that politician is criticism of the group, and identity politics in all its forms.

Step Four: Attack the Delivery of the Message, Not the Message Itself

Step four is simple tone policing—divert the topic to “civility of the discourse,” shifting the focus to how the critic delivered her criticism, rather than the substantive merit of said criticism. This leads directly to smarm and virtue signaling—a pattern that repeatedly occurred in 2016 with Hillary Clinton, and is happening again with Kamala Harris. In both cases, liberals press the idea that criticisms only ever come from privileged white men, are too rude and abusive to ever be constructive, and only ever stem from racism and sexism—usually in the form of a total dismissal of all identity politics and a contempt for the oppressed identities they’re meant to protect. Critics of these politicians are never acknowledged as having legitimate concerns on policy and character.

Step Five: Personality, Not Policy

The fifth and final step for the neoliberals is to make the political debate a matter of charismatic personalities, or “names.” This is why we see so many pieces lamenting that Kamala Harris has a “Bernieland problem,” or is struggling with “Bernie Sanders supporters,” despite the fact that neither Bernie Sanders or anyone in his inner circle are actually behind any of the Harris public criticisms, and most of these leftists haven’t brought up Sanders at all in their critiques. (Some centrists, such as Laurence Tribe, have gone so far as to accuse Sanders of masterminding the attacks, in the absence of all evidence.) These pieces often refuse to call the critics “leftists” or “progressives,” because that would give a clearer idea of policy beliefs and ideals.

On Aug. 8, when The Week published the aforementioned Ryan Cooper article, and every day since, all of these dynamics have been in the media. Cooper responded to accusations that the left is motivated by racism and misogyny in its distrust of Harris by citing her history as a prosecutor, her defense of questionable Wall Street fat cats like Bain Capital, and her closeness to the donor class. However, although a few responses did try to sincerely engage Cooper’s arguments, most simply evaded them altogether in favor of doubling down on accusations of racism, sexism, and the false claim that these critics refused to hold white politicians to the same standards.
 



Part 2:
How to Fight It

My personal belief is that liberals always want to pivot away from substantive policy to diversity, double standards, civility, privilege and personalities because they’re actually afraid of defending their heroes on a policy level—though not always for the same reasons. Some of these liberals won’t defend the problematic policies and connections of a Harris, Booker, or Patrick because they don’t find them problematic. In fact, they outright support them, and don’t want to openly say so. Others can’t defend the problematic policies and connections of a Harris, Booker, or Patrick because they don’t actually know enough about the policies and connections of their faves to defend them on that level—even if they were inclined to try. They only engage with them on the level of fans and celebrities.

And it’s precisely because they can’t argue politics on a policy level that they always want to get leftists to discuss the criteria that matter to them…bourgeois feminism, superficial diversity, civility, and incrementalism. Since they can only critique on those standards, they try to force others into defending on the same standards, and shift the entire discourse. When you know you can’t win the debate on policy grounds, there are some definite advantages to using this alternate strategy instead.

First, by constantly returning the focus to identity politics, the hope is to get leftists to respond on the same grounds, which subtly reinforces their premise that these are the things politics should be about. Therefore, even if you as a leftist are responding just to say “no, we’re not white racists silencing people of color and women” and “no, we’re not uncivil,” you’re validating their premise that those are the most important issues at stake simply by defending yourself. Suddenly, you’re on trial, and the politicians in question—along with their policies and political connections—are secondary. But if a leftist refuses to answer at all, she will appear to be tacitly admitting to racism, misogyny, and other forms of toxicity. It’s the classic loaded question gambit gambit: “Senator, when did you stop beating your wife?”

That’s why the best response is to always pivot back to policy, even when choosing to answering the identity politics accusations. If, as a leftist, you choose to defend the left’s track record on race, be sure to include policies you support that help oppressed identities, and contrast them with centrist policies that hurt those same people. Whenever liberals get roped into policy discussions, they usually end up defending fallacious arguments that are easy to pick apart. Often, liberals will end up in ludicrous positions—badmouthing single payer, defending Hillary’s Arkansas slave labor, defending the Clinton crime bill, etc.

That’s why Cooper’s article was so effective and triggered so much defensiveness: it moved them out of their comfort zone and onto their opponent’s field of battle. Pivoting back to superficial identity politics, civilities, and litigating popular personalities is their attempt to regain home court advantage. In response to claims that the left dislikes Harris because she’s black and female, Cooper responded with pure policy, rather than just saying, “hey, we do like women and people of color, and here are examples of some who rock with us”—which is exactly the response they want. If you go that route, they’ll ignore you anyway, and will view it as validation of the idea that politics is just a head count of tokens.

Even if you do respond with policy, note that a liberal’s only defense is to revert to superficial identity politics, which is why you have to remain vigilant and stick to policy no matter how often they force the pivot. It’s not that identity politics and feminism don’t matter; it’s just that they’re using these topics as shields, and no matter how much you accept and respond to their framing, they’ll ignore the answer anyway. Furthermore, the superficial way they frame feminism and identity politics isn’t particularly helpful to women and minorities anyway. It’s optics and incrementalism—utterly bourgeois in its concerns and solutions.

I feel liberals ignore policy concerns that people like Ryan Cooper, Briahna Joy Gray, and Zoe Samudzi bring up because either they fully support said crappy policies and know saying so looks bad, or because they aren’t engaged on policies at all, couldn’t defend them intellectually even if they wanted to, and may not even know what they are.

Oh, and don’t forget personalities. They also want to keep topic on personalities (Hillary, Kamala, Bernie, certain leftist podcasters, pundits, and writers) and not on systems and the needs of voters. They get hung up on people, and not ideas. That way they can dwell on things like Bernie Sanders the person, his wife’s legal case, and the cost of his house, and not on socialism and its growing appeal with the populace, especially young people. If this sounds like a Republican smear tactic, that’s no accident—a continued focus on policy is kryptonite to liberals, whose only recourse is to act, and sound, just like conservatives.

T. Beaulieu is the host of the Champagne Sharks podcast. You can also find him on Twitter @rickyrawls.
 
What are Kamala Harris' problematic policy positions???

It's so crazy that we're tearing down potential Democratic candidates already in 2017.

I'm all for examining her record, or anyone else's, but for someone to argue at this early date she's an unacceptable candidate is way too premature.
Just my gut feeling, but I don't think 'liberal' and moderate voting America are ready for another Black presidential candidate.
 
Welp.

Bernie Sanders Voters Helped Trump Win and Here's Proof

Thanks, Berners!

http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320



So, in the general election, roughly 20% of Sanders voters either voted for Trump, didn't vote, or voted for another candidate.
Great.

What's most sickening is that Berniebros are the reason Trump won Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, which was basically the election.

Around 200,000 Bernie supporters voted for Trump in those 3 swing states.

Trump won all three by less than 80,000 votes.

That's unbelievable.

Well, it's official now. We have an insurgency movement attempting to take over the the Dem party, and if we aren't careful it will explode into a civil war.

Being angry with the DNC and HRC doesn't mean you ACTIVELY try to get someone like Trump elected as some kind of punishment to non-Sanders supporters.

Berniebros' temper tantrum fucked up the SC for more than a generation and the country in general.

This is why I always post everywhere on social media that Bernie Sanders is more of a personality cult than politician, and his supporters are more loyal to HIM than the party.

Now they're floating the idea Sanders is going to run again in 2020, at age 79. Please no.
And if he he does and we other progressives don't support him, they will blow up the election again.
 
I happen to be a Clinton-style Democrat myself, and I have some strong criticisms of Bernie's economic platform and his relative insistence on framing all issues black people face in purely economic terms. But I want to make one other thing clear: if Bernie had beaten Hillary in the primary and was the Democratic nominee against Trump, I would have voted for Bernie in a heartbeat. No candidate is ever perfect (Hillary certainly wasn't, even though she was my favorite), and we all have to make compromises.

So to the Bernie voters on this forum or in this thread: I'm with you. We may not agree on everything, but we agree on more than enough that I desperately want to be your friend, not your enemy. We liberals have enough enemies as it is, given that conservatives control virtually every part of the government right now.
 
What are Kamala Harris' problematic policy positions???

It's so crazy that we're tearing down potential Democratic candidates already in 2017.

I'm all for examining her record, or anyone else's, but for someone to argue at this early date she's an unacceptable candidate is way too premature.
Just my gut feeling, but I don't think 'liberal' and moderate voting America are ready for another Black presidential candidate.
She might get a pass since she's a woman
 
So, in the general election, roughly 20% of Sanders voters either voted for Trump, didn't vote, or voted for another candidate.
Great.

What's most sickening is that Berniebros are the reason Trump won Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, which was basically the election.

Around 200,000 Bernie supporters voted for Trump in those 3 swing states.

Trump won all three by less than 80,000 votes.

That's unbelievable.

Well, it's official now. We have an insurgency movement attempting to take over the the Dem party, and if we aren't careful it will explode into a civil war.

Being angry with the DNC and HRC doesn't mean you ACTIVELY try to get someone like Trump elected as some kind of punishment to non-Sanders supporters.

Berniebros' temper tantrum fucked up the SC for more than a generation and the country in general.

This is why I always post everywhere on social media that Bernie Sanders is more of a personality cult than politician, and his supporters are more loyal to HIM than the party.

Now they're floating the idea Sanders is going to run again in 2020, at age 79. Please no.
And if he he does and we other progressives don't support him, they will blow up the election again.
Ok so realistically who else we got because I for one would rather leave than just hand the keys to another corporate democrat. Is it completely unimaginable to have people who actually work for the citizens of this country and not purely wealthy interests? Is it childish to want that?
Because whether it's a Trump or Clinton the end result is the same the American people being completely fucked the only difference is speed and magnitude
 
Ok so realistically who else we got because I for one would rather leave than just hand the keys to another corporate democrat. Is it completely unimaginable to have people who actually work for the citizens of this country and not purely wealthy interests? Is it childish to want that?
Because whether it's a Trump or Clinton the end result is the same the American people being completely fucked the only difference is speed and magnitude


The problem is you have to understand what you're dealing with on the other side of the aisle.
A corporate dem might be corrosive to the long term goals of progressives, but a corporate Republican is 100x worse.
No matter how bad a candidate HRC might have been, she was the superior alternative to Trump.

Also progressives need to understand the difference between being a great candidate and a great POTUS.
I have much more trust in HRC controlling the levers of the federal government than either Bernie or Trump.

That's the discussion Bernie bros should have been having, instead of convincing themselves the country would survive a Trump presidency AND we can teach the DCCC a hard lesson at the same time.

BTW Bernie wasn't 'cheated'. He just wasn't the favored candidate of the DNC, which is understandable.
TO beat the incumbent within a political party, you can't come close. You have to knock them out.

Bernie no matter what his supporters say didn't do what Obama did to HRC in 2008, when BHO flipped Hillary voters to change their allegiance to him.

Bernie was never able to do that.
 
The problem is you have to understand what you're dealing with on the other side of the aisle.
A corporate dem might be corrosive to the long term goals of progressives, but a corporate Republican is 100x worse.
No matter how bad a candidate HRC might have been, she was the superior alternative to Trump.

Also progressives need to understand the difference between being a great candidate and a great POTUS.
I have much more trust in HRC controlling the levers of the federal government than either Bernie or Trump.

That's the discussion Bernie bros should have been having, instead of convincing themselves the country would survive a Trump presidency AND we can teach the DCCC a hard lesson at the same time.

BTW Bernie wasn't 'cheated'. He just wasn't the favored candidate of the DNC, which is understandable.
TO beat the incumbent within a political party, you can't come close. You have to knock them out.

Bernie no matter what his supporters say didn't do what Obama did to HRC in 2008, when BHO flipped Hillary voters to change their allegiance to him.

Bernie was never able to do that.
When people like Donna Brazil craft questions in order to make HRC look better and give her more air time at the request of the DNC that's cheating, they aren't giving both candidates equal time.
Everyone acts like Bernie just showed up last week the man has more experience than HRC and Trump. Why are we pretending like he's some novice.

I also think the vast majority of bots as you call them voted for HRC. I know I did and it's because most of us understood the threat that was DJT
Where she failed is she didn't show up in those states you mentioned she didn't address the econonic concerns of people living in the rust belt and South. All she had to do was talk about bringing jobs here but that wasn't her message. Her overall message was I'm not Trump. She's your classic ivory tower elite who believed she deserved the presidency and didn't have to work for it.
I agree conservatives are far worst but they are both representatives of the wealthy elite and to this day I never believed someone worth hundreds of millions of dollars would have really addressed the concerns of the working class in a meaningful way. The only difference she wouldn't be dumb enough to burn the whole thing down.
 
The problem is you have to understand what you're dealing with on the other side of the aisle.
A corporate dem might be corrosive to the long term goals of progressives, but a corporate Republican is 100x worse.
No matter how bad a candidate HRC might have been, she was the superior alternative to Trump.

Also progressives need to understand the difference between being a great candidate and a great POTUS.
I have much more trust in HRC controlling the levers of the federal government than either Bernie or Trump.

That's the discussion Bernie bros should have been having, instead of convincing themselves the country would survive a Trump presidency AND we can teach the DCCC a hard lesson at the same time.

BTW Bernie wasn't 'cheated'. He just wasn't the favored candidate of the DNC, which is understandable.
TO beat the incumbent within a political party, you can't come close. You have to knock them out.

Bernie no matter what his supporters say didn't do what Obama did to HRC in 2008, when BHO flipped Hillary voters to change their allegiance to him.

Bernie was never able to do that.
OMG preach

You & Loki are the voices of clear-eyed political reason on this board
 
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