Being an African is not the same as being black at all. White Berbers have African roots also.
The problem with this debate is that the word "black" is not even defined
It would help if we defined the word first and then move on from there
Steve Nash Double Swirling Gone Wrong!!
- Thread starter nobledruali
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Being an African is not the same as being black at all. White Berbers have African roots also.
The problem with this debate is that the word "black" is not even defined
It would help if we defined the word first and then move on from there
Inner Beauty
New Member
What do you define as Black?
orejon4
Well-Known Member
Your last statement was what I said waaaaay back in an earlier post that these are social terms and that was what people were referring to when they use the term 'black', not that they think Nicole Ritchie is the same as Miriam Makeba. No one is blind here, but they are simply acknowledging that they have some black ancestry and it is visible, even if slightly so.
And I owe you an apology for using the term 'Tamazight' interchangeably with Berber. I was referring to Tuaregs in my initial statement and became sloppy with my terms. That being clarified, I stick to my original statement regarding the Afro-asiatic origin of the people and language. I am well aware that there are very fair-skinned Berbers.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people
For people don't know much about Berbers you can read up about them
Can you make a genetic case for what actually constitutes a "black" person?
For people don't know much about Berbers you can read up about them
Can you make a genetic case for what actually constitutes a "black" person?
Many black African languages are Afro-Asiatic. That has nothing to do with the origins of the people
Also people who have white ancestry is very visible on them also. Why not simply identify them as white
orejon4
Well-Known Member
Thanks! It seems as if he has an absolutist view of 'blackness' similar to the way whites in the US have an absolutist view of 'whiteness'. I don't view it as incorrect to acknowledge that a person has sub-Saharan ancestry even if they look pale, or near-white. That is not to say that the person is 100% sub-Saharan black, but to me I can see very clearly both non-black and black features on both of the women he used as examples, Mariah Carey (a lot more so) and Nicole Ritchie (less so). I agree with him (as do most of the people on the forum, in my opinion) that the one-drop rule is a US invention, but it is convenient shorthand for what everyone was discussing, namely whether or not any trace of sub-Saharan genes were present in Steve Nash's girlfriend.
orejon4
Well-Known Member
That is the same link I posted in my own earlier post.
Surely not the Wenworth Millers, Mariah Careys. Ryan Giggs etc it's absurd that people who the majority of their ancestry is not even from Africa and don't look like people in sub-Saharan Africa are refered to as such
If those people are "people who look like me, then even inner beauty is black and looks like me also
Do white people come in all shades and colours too?
Why would I identify with somebody who the majority of their ancestors hail from Europe and they also look like it but not identify with Inner Beauty or Bill Clinton or George Bush as all people who look like me?
orejon4
Well-Known Member
I beg to differ with you on this point. The formation of language indicates the origins of the people over time, their prehistoric relationships. Human populations change over time due to migration, war, intermingling with other groups, etc. That is why white Europeans speak Indo-European/Indo-Aryan languages, the only non-Indo-European language being spoken in Europe indigenously being Basque, whose origins are unknown.
The actual amount of genetic markers that differentiate the human subgroups (of which there are only three that differ to any significant amount) are very few. I am not arguing for any form of racial absolutism because I don't think race is a biologically valid concept beyond certain specific disease susceptibilities among subgroups. The social basis for these definitions is the whole point of the argument about the race of the girlfriend, in my opinion.
Inner Beauty
New Member
No, thank you, I started discussing this with him earlier, but you took the baton and ran with it and you're debating his every point. Props to you!
I guess if you don't fit into what he deems as the Caucasoid, Mongoloid or Negroid classification, you fall by the wayside. Umm, thanks to people traveling, a lot of us have mixtures in our ancestry.
I see it in Steves girl.
Am not an absoluist in anything. I was just pointing out that people like Nicole Richie don't look any more like me than they do Hilary Clinton
The term black is not a case of a common culture, traditions, history, language, way of life, experiences, upbringing or even similar people
It only means one thing to me
You Ned to read up on African languages. Many black African languages are Afro-Asiatic. I guess your theory about Berbers apply to all the blacks with Afro-Asiatic languages
Inner Beauty
New Member
An example of this would be Halle Berrys daughter. She calls her daughter Black with 75% White ancestry.
Inner beauty I actually don't have a strict definition of anything
Like you said a lot of whites are multi racial so it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to refer to Nicole Ritchie as anything but white especially when she looks just like you if you consider yourself white
And why would she do that? Maybe due to clutching onto and insisting on a crazy one drop theory invented out of thin air.
If she didn't cling to that theory why would she refer to her daughter that way?
And why would a person actually cling to a one drop thing that actually doesn't make sense and then insist on it even though it was invented by white supremacists?
Inner Beauty
New Member
After I wrote my post, I realized I went off kilter somewhat.
I understand what you're trying to convey regarding someone being called Black when they have White (physically acknowledgeable) ancestry, but I don't agree that they should be called White either.
My whole point is, not everyone can fit into one racial classification. It's been talked about, but there was mention of calling biracial/multiracial people something. I don't know what happened with that.
Inner Beauty
New Member
Well, Halle herself being biracial, identifies herself as a Black woman. That's how she's perceived, so that's why she labels herself as such. I assume she's bracing her daughter and since we live in America, for whatever racial situations may occur.
We could continue this discussion later but I need to ask you a question
Do you feel an automatic need to identify with anybody with one drop of white? Do you see them as people who look like you etc? If you hear that somebody has a black ancestor do you consider them non white automatically? Who do YOU consider black?
I'm going to sleep but il continue this discussion later
Nicole Ritchie, Mariah, Wenworh Miller etc can all be perceived as white. Why identify them as anything else?