the myth about black male failure (just picked this up)

T

tonytony

New Member
just picked this up on another interracial board but most black men should really read this.
here goes:

Marriage Obselete" Author Replies to Super Mann - The Myth of Black Male Failure

I sent an email to Joy Jones, author of "Marriage Is for White People,"
challenging the many negative stereotypes about Black men contained
in her article. What follows is Jones' response to my email, followed
by Super Mann's original email to Joy Jones. My email to Jones
contained positive facts about Black men that he has provided on
a previous Blacktown message board.

Joy Jones wrote:


From : <Joythink@aol.com>
Sent : Wednesday, April 5, 2006 5:05 AM
To : super_mann@hotmail.com
Subject : Re: Marriage is for White People - The Stats on Black Male Employment

Dear SM,

Thank you for your in-depth comments and statistics. You make several good points and I appreciate them. In certain ways, we are holding our own and that probably doesn't get applauded as often as it should. I infer from your letter that you personally are probably not just holding your own but excelling. However, that does not mean that there are not issues that need to be discussed so that we can confront them. I certainly don't intend to suggest that African American women have more in common with white men although there are things that women, in general share with other women, and men with other men. I don't think men aint nothing, and I have written to challenge some of women's issues in relationships, as well. (See "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" posted on numerous sites.) The issues are complex and complicated and I thank you for weighing in with your perspective.

Joy Jones



Here is the original email that Super Mann sent to Joy Jones:

Dear Ms Joy Jones:

I read your article titled "Marriage is for White People" in the WASHINGTON POST and I found
it quite interesting.

Let's see if I have your basic premises about African-American men and marriage correct:

1) Most African-American men are focused on wanting to "play the field" even in their early 30's.
2) African-American men may be gay and may give you AIDS so African-American women prefer
to stay away from them.
3) African-American men almost always make less money than African-American women.
4) Most African-American men tend to endure years of drug use (I see plenty of female
drug addicts on the street, but let's forget about that for the moment).
5) Most African-American men have poor health.
6) Most African-American men are sexual promiscuous (And NOT women? So who are these
guys sleeping with? It might be enlightening to check out the sexual habits of your average
African-American female teenager).
7) The African-American male's expectations for relationships has remained stagnent over the decades.
8) Being involved with an African-American man brings Black women "exponentially more drama."
9) A relationship with an African-American man "can be hazardous to your health."

Hmmm. . . Wonderful views of African-American men: written by an African-American woman
and published in an internationally recognized newspaper to boot. That's okay, sad to say I
have actually come to expect such characterizations and I am no longer shocked by them. Nor
am I angered by them.

But I would like for you to check out the following statistical analysis I performed on data
provided by the U.S. Census Bureau. If you are like most people I have shown this analysis
to, you may be quite surprised at my findings.

I took a close look at the economics of African-American men and women a while back after
I read yet another one of those "Black women are striving and Black men are screwing up" articles
that are periodically published in TIMES, NEWSWEEK, the Washington Post, and other
publications.

I found that the numbers didn't quite match up with the usual image of the failing African-
American male. Please review these numbers and tell me whether or not you think that the
image of the African-American male is a far worse than it needs to be.

Here is what I found:

The U.S. Census Bureau is not necessarily the most definitive and accurate source of
demographic information, however, it is the source that is readily available to everyone.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau's recent census (2000), here are the HARD NUMBERS
on who makes what money among African-Americans. Among those who work full-time year-round:

$20,000 to $22,499--Male: 370,027 Fem: 468,256 = 21% More African-American women
$22,500 to $24,999--Male: 273,109 Fem: 327,344 = 17% More African-American women
$25,000 to $29,999--Male: 573,317 Fem: 638,563 = 11% More African-American women
$30,000 to $34,999--Male: 535,979 Fem: 503,894 = 06% More African-American men
$35,000 to $39,999--Male: 421,187 Fem: 355,899 = 16% More African-American men
$40,000 to $44,999--Male: 353,816 Fem: 297,817 = 16% More African-American men
$45,000 to $49,999--Male: 233,463 Fem: 182,997 = 22% More African-American men
$50,000 to $54,999--Male: 233,966 Fem: 149,592 = 36% More African-American men
$55,000 to $64,999--Male: 232,166 Fem: 151,074 = 35% More African-American men
$65,000 to $74,999--Male: 150,924 Fem: 75,044 = 50% More African-American men
$75,000 to $99,999--Male: 140,676 Fem: 72,039 = 49% More African-American men
$100,000 or more -- Male: 101,675 Fem: 41,927 = 59% More African-American men

In other words, even though there are "so many African-American men in jail"
African-American men still outnumber African-American women in virtually all
of the higher salary catergories. And African-American men outnumber African-American
women in substantial numbers.

When it comes to African-American millionaires, the number of African-American
MALE millionaires (due mostly to sports and entertainment-- but African-American
men dominate in other business categories as well) is perhaps 10 times the
number of African-American FEMALE millionaires. Additionally, African-American male
business owners dominate in every business category worth mentioning--
according to BLACK ENTERPRISE'S various "top business" lists.

And when you look at the statistics closer, you find that African-American men dominate
in the higher income categories EVEN THOUGH their are substantially more African-American
women in the workforce than African-American men. There was 12,901,954 women and
10,243,989 men working full time. Thus there are 2,657,965 more African-American women
available to fill jobs. Yet African-American men dominate in the higher income categories.


LET'S LOOK AT SOME MORE NUMBERS. . .

Let's examine the statistics regarding the number of African-American men and women graduating
college. I wanted to take a close look to see what these statistics REALLY mean.

Here are the numbers of African-American men and women over the age of 25 who have
graduated high school and went to college:

HIGH SCH GRADUATE: Male 2,676,410; Female 3,167,033 = 16% more African-American women
SOME COLLEGE: Male 1,745,761; Female 2,380,389 = 27% more African-American women
ASSOCIATES DEGREE: Male 434,935; Female 754,445 = 42% more African-American women
BACHELOR'S DEGREE: Male 797,839; Female 1,106,440 = 29% more African-American women
GRADUATE DEGREE: Male 390,695; Female 535,097 = 27% more African-American women

Okay. we see that the number of African-American women with college degrees is substantially
higher than African-American men. But note that while the numbers are substantially higher for
African-American women, in no category are there 2, 3, or 4 times as many female graduates--
differences you would assume based on many of the shrill articles on the subject. Do the
substantial differences that DO exist mean African-American women are "doing much
better" and Black men are "falling behind?" Well, let's take a closer look at the numbers. The
most telling numbers in this respect are these:

Total Males among African-Americans 25 years or older: 8,156,088. Total Females among
African-Americans 25 years or older: 10,635,527.

In other words, just like in virtually every other ethnic group on the planet-- there are more women
than men. In this case, there are almost 2.5 million MORE BLACK WOMEN THAN BLACK MEN in this
age category, so there is SUPPOSED TO BE MORE WOMEN IN COLLEGE AND GRADUATING THAN MEN!!!
Especially in an African-American community where, despite the myths perpetuated by some
feminsts, African-American men don't spend time trying to keep African-American women from
advancing their careers; and wouldn't be in a position to stop them even if they wanted to (only
white folks hold that kind of power).

Therefore, the number of African-American women graduating college versus African-American
men may not have as much to do with the "screwed up Black male" and more to do with the fact
that there are more women in our population to begin with. This is also true for almost every
other population that data is available for.

BOTTOM LINE: If there wasn't a substantial number of African-American men in jail (due to a
varity of social issues that go beyond any "inherent" problem that African-American men have),
African-American men might indeed blow African-American women out of the water in every
socioeconomic category worth mentioning. As it is, African-American seem to be holding their
own very well.

As I looked at these numbers, I began to wonder the extend to which the alledged "low
self-esteem" of African-American women may be influencing the image of the "screwed up
African-American male." Is the "no African-American men can match us" myth anything more
than a cheap device that's badly needed by African-American women looking for a means of
proping up their egos?


LET'S LOOK AT SOME MORE INTERESTING NUMBERS. . . .

Here are the year 2000 statistics for who holds what kinds of jobs in the United States:

Management, professional and related occupations:
Male: 1,279,351 Female: 2,165,799 = 41% More African-American women.
Management, business and financial operations occupations:
Male: 566,680 Female: 711,366 = 20% More African-American women.
Professional and related occupations:
Male: 712,671 Female: 1,454,433 = 51% More African-American women.
Business and financial operations occupations:
Male: 179,167 Female: 339,919 = 47% More African-American women.
Legal occupations:
Male: 29,891 Female: 55,134 = 46% More African-American women.
Sales and office occupations:
Male: 1,126,475 Female: 2,581,539 = 56% More African-American women.

Now based on the numbers above, you would think African-American women are doing
substantially better in the job market. But guess again-- There are 6,286,279 employed
African-American men who are civilians, and who are 16yrs old or older, while there are
7,373,746 African-American women. Thus there are 1,087,467 more women in the African-
American working population in general, why wouldn't there be more women holding down
jobs overall? Especially in a population whose men are not of the mind to-- nor are they
capable of --holding back African-American women?

But there's more: the above occupations are EXACTLY those occupations that are "corporate"
or "business office" based. In other words, these are exactly the kinds of positions that many
believe that white men try to freeze African-American men out of.


NOW LET'S LOOK AT SOME OTHER JOB CATEGORIES:

Construction, extraction, and maintenance occupations:
Male: 853,304 Female:59,814 = 14 times more African-American men
Computer and mathematical occupations:
Male: 109,650 Female: 102,878 = 1% more African-American men
Architecture and engineering occupations:
Male: 101,714 Female: 29,200 = 4 times more African-American men
Arts, design, entertainment, sports and media occupations:
Male: 73,552 Female: 58,186 = 21% more African-American men
Farmers and farm managers:
Male: 9,823 Female: 380 = 26 times more African-American men
Farming, fishing and forestry occupations:
Male: 59,374 Female: 13,102 = 5 times more African-American men
Arts, design, entertainment, sports and media occupations:
Male: 73,552 Female: 58,186 = 21% more African-American men
Building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations:
Male: 372,004 Female: 353,881 = 5% more African-American men

In other words, while African-American women dominate in the air conditioned office,
African-American men often dominate in the field, in the street, in the lab, and in the back
rooms-- busy building this nation and keeping it going. Architects and engineers make
substantial cash, and their are four times as many African-American men in that field than
women. Construction also pays well (if you are unionized or self-employed) and there are
14 times as many African-American men in this job category. There are 26 times more
African-American men who are farmers and farm managers-- And farmers are MAJOR LAND
OWNERS, not country bumpkins.

Moreover, African-American men in the unionized construction trades may be wearing dirty
clothes, but they often make substantially higher salaries and get substantially better benefits
than many of the African-American female office workers who pass them everyday in a business
suit.


AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN RULE IN THE HIDDEN ECONOMY

Moreover, there are thousands and thousands of African-American men who are participating
in the UNDERGROUND ECONOMY (drugs, numbers running, gun running, money laundering, pimping,
con games) making big money. Just like their are plenty of white men who are in the underground
economy-- Except that the criminal justice system forces African-American men to take the weight
for this economy mostly on his own: Black Joe Neckbone is depicted as a savage animal, while
white Tony Soprano is posited as a lovable character.


CONCLUSIONS

Could it be that the idea that African-American women can't kind find African-American men with
a job, an education, and a good salary is not quite correct? Could it be pure propaganda
perpetuated by the racist media eager to prove that it is the African-American male that is the
problem and not other more far-reaching sociological, political and psychological problems that exist
between African-American men AND women?. Why are we constantly getting the message that
African-American women seem to have more in common with white males than with African-American
males?

Could there be a new "Black on Black" elitism based on "Black on Black" bigotry? Or could it be
merely a profound lack of knowledge about the actual statistics?

I conclude that even though African-American men have been under seige by a racist criminal
justice system, drug-based chemical warfare, racist white men, and a vibe from African-American
women that tells us "we ain't shit," African-American men seem to be doing a lot better than anyone
wants to admit. And the statistical facts seem to prove this.

It seems that African-American men are surviving, despite the odds, and are not quite finished yet.

Moreover, every time I show the numbers quoted above to African Americans they react with shock
and disbelief. Hasn't anyone bothered to run the numbers in this way?

I think more research and an artlcie by you on this issue may go far in opening the eyes of your
readers and would provide a healthier "spin" regarding what is happening with the African-American
male.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you on this matter.

Super Mann

Here are some of the original links to the statistics I used from the census bureau. I don't know if
the links are still valid, but they should provide a starting point:
----------------

Income statistics for Black men and women:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?ds_name=D&geo_id=D&mt_name=ACS_C2SS_EST_G2000_PCT059
B&_lang=en
Occupation statistics for Black men and women:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?ds_name=D&geo_id=D&mt_name=ACS_C2SS_EST_G2000_PCT049
B&_lang=en
Education statistics for Black men and women:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?ds_name=D&geo_id=D&mt_name=ACS_C2SS_EST_G2000_PCT035
B&_lang=en
 
Very good post!!!
A lot of those stats confirm some of the things that many of my friends have been saying all along.
Prefect.
 
I don't know why people are fighting the fact that WM and BW are alike in most ways and both groups have a vested interest in keeping the American black man "in his place."

I guess it's the same political correctness that makes a brotha bend over backwards not to admit he likes white women exclusively.
 
To be honest, i have grown so weary of whites, liberals and conservatives alike, thinking they know and have the solutions to our problems that i NEVER pay attention to these fake statistics. They're made up from time to time.
 
The Big Lie Exposed.

Tonytony, good work here brotha. Sounds to me that the myth that bw are doing great and bm are doing terrible is propaganda on a major scale.
I have looked around and I don't see a whole lot of bw blazing a trail anywhere.
 
Statistics seem to generally differ with whatever perspective a person has on the world. It would be nice if they could be 99.999999% factual, but hey, look who's compiling them: people. Objectivity doesn't exactly come naturally to us.
 
That's a great read and helps clear my mind on stuff like this. I always thought the numbers make up saying how brotha's aren't making it was bs to start with.
 
LaydeezmanCris said:
Miss Jenkins said:
Nice stats...clearing up some misconceptions.
Click to expand...

But for the most part, the misconceptions are "facts" to some.
Click to expand...

Well when blacks think about the incarceration rates, death from violence and diseases black men face, and the fact that there are more black women working, finishing school, and in more professional careers than black men, I can see how they accept the idea that black women are ahead of black men as a fact.
 
Miss Jenkins said:
LaydeezmanCris said:
Miss Jenkins said:
Nice stats...clearing up some misconceptions.
Click to expand...

But for the most part, the misconceptions are "facts" to some.
Click to expand...

Well when blacks think about the incarceration rates, death from violence and diseases black men face, and the fact that there are more black women working, finishing school, and in more professional careers than black men, I can see how they accept the idea that black women are ahead of black men as a fact.
Click to expand...

just so you know. almost everything you said there about black men and black women (less violence, incarceration etc) can be said about white men and white women. the only difference is that the dynamics of race and white male insecurity have played their part in undermining the black man in todays society (more likely to be stopped, searched, prosecuted or not given jobs, racist cops and institutions even in some cases admitting to their indiscretions etc) .

It is a fact that a white man is more likely to give a job to a black woman than a black man, same as he is more likely to give a job to white man than a black man, alot of people dont realise that the way alot of companies get round affirmative action and gender discrimination is to simply hire a bw, i think sometimes people do not consider things like this, i also think the example of how tony soprano is lovable while any black man doing something similar is stereotyped and depicted as a savage individual is on point. These are the things that people just dont consider, But are just as important .
 
tonytony said:
Miss Jenkins said:
LaydeezmanCris said:
Miss Jenkins said:
Nice stats...clearing up some misconceptions.
Click to expand...

But for the most part, the misconceptions are "facts" to some.
Click to expand...

Well when blacks think about the incarceration rates, death from violence and diseases black men face, and the fact that there are more black women working, finishing school, and in more professional careers than black men, I can see how they accept the idea that black women are ahead of black men as a fact.
Click to expand...

just so you know. almost everything you said there about black men and black women (less violence, incarceration etc) can be said about white men and white women. the only difference is that the dynamics of race and white male insecurity have played their part in undermining the black man in todays society (more likely to be stopped, searched, prosecuted or not given jobs, racist cops and institutions even in some cases admitting to their indiscretions etc) .

It is a fact that a white man is more likely to give a job to a black woman than a black man, same as he is more likely to give a job to white man than a black man, alot of people dont realise that the way alot of companies get round affirmative action and gender discrimination is to simply hire a bw, i think sometimes people do not consider things like this, i also think the example of how tony soprano is lovable while any black man doing something similar is stereotyped and depicted as a savage individual is on point. These are the things that people just dont consider, But are just as important .
Click to expand...

I don't think the media will ever show the real reason behind the reason for this "black male failure/plight". Anyway, blacks have a real problem with gobbling up everything the white media says is a fact and when they look around and see some of the images the media portrays black men as (criminals, on the dl, jobless), it re-affirms their beliefs. Then the studies that come out every now and then that show the condition of black males is not helping either. In these studies, it's basically his fault that he is jobless, in prison, not in school, etc. Rarely are the reasons behind these problems given.
 
Miss Jenkins said:
tonytony said:
Miss Jenkins said:
LaydeezmanCris said:
Miss Jenkins said:
Nice stats...clearing up some misconceptions.
Click to expand...

But for the most part, the misconceptions are "facts" to some.
Click to expand...

Well when blacks think about the incarceration rates, death from violence and diseases black men face, and the fact that there are more black women working, finishing school, and in more professional careers than black men, I can see how they accept the idea that black women are ahead of black men as a fact.
Click to expand...

just so you know. almost everything you said there about black men and black women (less violence, incarceration etc) can be said about white men and white women. the only difference is that the dynamics of race and white male insecurity have played their part in undermining the black man in todays society (more likely to be stopped, searched, prosecuted or not given jobs, racist cops and institutions even in some cases admitting to their indiscretions etc) .

It is a fact that a white man is more likely to give a job to a black woman than a black man, same as he is more likely to give a job to white man than a black man, alot of people dont realise that the way alot of companies get round affirmative action and gender discrimination is to simply hire a bw, i think sometimes people do not consider things like this, i also think the example of how tony soprano is lovable while any black man doing something similar is stereotyped and depicted as a savage individual is on point. These are the things that people just dont consider, But are just as important .
Click to expand...

I don't think the media will ever show the real reason behind the reason for this "black male failure/plight". Anyway, blacks have a real problem with gobbling up everything the white media says is a fact and when they look around and see some of the images the media portrays black men as (criminals, on the dl, jobless), it re-affirms their beliefs. Then the studies that come out every now and then that show the condition of black males is not helping either. In these studies, it's basically his fault that he is jobless, in prison, not in school, etc. Rarely are the reasons behind these problems given.
Click to expand...

its the way the media is, the white man thinks that if he tells you that you are a failure long enough you will believe it(and alot of people have) and hopefully you will eventually become one.
 
This thread is a masterpiece. It was also worth the time to read. Thank you, Mr. tony...



and, I personally agree with you Miss J, and Cris the most.
 
You know, having read this thread and been given so much inside scoop, i further reaffirm my belief that most or all of the "official statistics" are worthless pieces of false information altered to suit the preferences of those who make them. I will be absolutely honest with you; when i came to this country in 1998, i had similar beliefs about black life in America. I did not have them because i was bigoted by any means but because that was the impression and image of African-Americans presented to the rest of the world. I just happened to be a gullible recipient of that false information. But having being here for more than 8 years and seen firsthand many, many successful black males and by seeking real information elsewhere, i have come to the conclusion that all of those facts are myths. But i am pretty sure that i do not have to go over this whole thing as you guys have already put it better.

Just so people are clear, the myth that there are more black males in prisons than there are in colleges is false. I am not sure of the exact numbers but i do know for a mere fact based on previous researches i have done that it is not correct and is only a false, bigoted propaganda put out by whites. Granted, i am not under the impression that there are no criminals who are black but for how long do we have to be lied to? I do know that a lot of less-privileged people could commit crime but that the association of racial or ethnic identity with crime rates is a false and possibly racist paradigm. These days, other factors have been included such as socioeconomic status and education but because the latter still add up to some of the reasons why blacks are poor, these racist bastards try to present them as facts.

Secondly, black males are the second earning minorities in the country, just behind Asian-American males. Black males earn more than black females and according to recent studies, black females might be earning close to or just about the same as white women which would mean that black males earn equal or more than white women. Also, more than 700,000 black males have gone off the poverty roles and the growth of African-American male income is turning into big gains in black businesses. For the record, Fortune 500 would be more likely to offer a job to a HBCU graduate than a black from other colleges. There are more black male CEOs and business owners than black female owners and the general collective economic status of African-Americans are booming, contrary to widespread belief. But on TV, all you see is Tyronne rapping, dunking, scoring a touchdown or committing violent crimes. :roll:

In general, if you paid attention to the "progress" blacks have and are making in America, you would think we are in some kind of political suicide. But that is far from the story. But hey, everything about black history has always been controversial and debatable that finding the truth is extremely elusive. Sometimes, when i watch the movie "Malcolm X" over and over again, i often rewind the part where Denzel asked the prison chaplain to prove that Jesus Christ was a white man. For those of you who have seen the movie, you remember clearly that the man was reluctant to respond to Malcolm and ignored his repeated attempts to ask a question and instead responding to the white inmates. When he finally decided to take the question (whilst saying, "Oh, the devil has a question"), Denzel asked him politely but firmly, "How do we know that Jesus Christ was white"? The man had no response but to ignore but Denzel persisted until he finally explained clearly Jesus' physical characteristics which clearly illustrates that he is anything but reflective of the Nordic, blue-eyed image portrayed in contemporary Christianity. If you wanna be smart and know the truth, adopt that attitude and do a background research on everything until you know the inside truth and see how much lies will be unconvered. And thats a memo.
 
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