the old spice guy is stinking up the place

[The Dark King]

He isn't being knocked for what he likes.

He's being knocked for claiming that his natural hair is inferior to that which is common amongst Caucasians.

He didn't just say "I like straight hair", he said his was "bad" because it was "nappy". You have to look at his comments as a whole, and not just a few parts.



I already explained some of the reasons why.

1. Businesses frown upon Black women wearing their hair natural or in braids. There have been lawsuits regarding this.
   
2. Historically the media celebrates features and attributes that the average Black person does not have while vilifying their own attributes.
   
3. There are tons of products aimed at undoing their natural look in favor of what is considered the look of the successful.
   
4. Lack of positive reinforcement.

Absolutely true.

Still, the more successful races on the planet Earth tend to look at themselves as a whole, rather than individuals. I think that has always been a problem for Blacks. They have a "you're on you're own" while I "get mine" approach.



I disagree, it makes absolute sense from a psychological standpoint, and was even purposely used to historically demoralize certain races as a tactic.

It was used because it worked.

Whether it be the evil hook-nosed Jew or the Black African savage, playing up on those racial caricatures can have a damaging impact on the individuals. Numerous studies have shown this.

It is only rational for someone who has natural attributes on the chopping block for centuries to have a complex regarding them. Especially when there is no one to reenforce the fact that those features are beautiful.

Whites don't have that problem because no matter what media they look to, they will see themselves glorified.

It isn't that "White women are just too confident to change their inherent hairstyles", it's that the world isn't telling them they HAVE to.

It's easy to blame the individual but the hair industry speaks volumes to the insecurity the average Black women feels about how her natural features/characteristics.

- Daft

Incredibly well stated post especially the bolded part.

 

[The Dark King]

Black women survived just fine for centuries in America without weaves in their head.

And the answer to all this by black women today is to put ridiculous looking weaves in their heads to look like they have said features. Then one would wonder why a guy would have such preferences in his personal life when it comes to something even as simplistic as hair.

I'm a dark skinned black man, if I absorbed everything stereotypical people thought about me as a black man I would be utterly useless in the real world.

And we know there are a lot of stereotypes about black men, do we ever.

I get on with my life and don't need to define myself through the lenses of the media and stereotypes.

I thought black women were strong and independent, why do they care what he thinks about hair, its his personal choice in his life, even after we finish extrapolating it to the historical plight of blacks in America.

It still won't change the fact of what he likes and the fact that I like a woman with her real hair. If you need a headful of weave as a woman, that says a whole lot more about you as a person.

The irony is some of the weaves look plain ridiculous in the real world as they are walking around with it on their heads. But their life their choice, just like isaiah Mustafa has his.

I just find it duplicitous to get on a guy when we all clearly see what features many black women are pursuing when it comes to their own hair.

Not every black woman has the rationale of the business world not liking black women with natural hair. Matter of fact the majority don't, what is their deal then. I think we all know that answer.

We're too busy worrying about what "whites" think about us. When is enough enough. I date white women and I don't waste my time worrying about what white or black folks for that matter think.

Its 2011, live your life and make the best of it is my motto.

GQ I couldn't disagree with you more on this entire post.

1. Saying black women did without weaves for hundreds of years is a moot point. Its like saying women in general did without make up for hundreds of years so why do they make a big deal about it? Not to mention bw didn't have any type of medium to discuss their grievances until the early late 19th century and even then it wasn't about physical appearance and fashion it was more about economic and physical survival.

2. I feel like I'm channeling Trixie right now but you can't come close to comparing being a dark skin male to being a black woman of any shade because as men we have the luxury of being judged on ability not appearance. For women you not only have to be great at what you do but you have to look good too. There's a reason why Anna Kornikova was the biggest name in Tennis a few years ago even though she was ranked 8.
And part of fitting the attractive mythos is having long straight hair.
We as men don't have that burden so we can't understand.

3. Dude I truly despise all that "they" talk. Since when did a few ghetto heffas speak for ALL black women. I hate when the same rules are applied to black men. I hate that the 5% of us that are criminals speak for every black male. Their actions are considered the actions of the majority.

4. While I do prefer ww I don't find it necessary to down all bw.

 

[GQ Brotha]

Well fellas we're going to have to simply disagree on this one.

Its always remarkable to me how much validation, affirmation and self measurement is given to celebrities and their words in our culture.

I'm not naive to why that is, but it is testament to a larger issue about identity today.

When do we call full stop on that and actually look at the far more important things that afflict blacks.

So much issues in the black community and hair is really that serious, just denotes the superficiality of the mindset that exists. OMG, whites don't like our hair, oh no, Cmon.

What are the real priorities if we want to talk about the issues of the black community from a historical perspective.

Amazing that this discussion that could have been had in 1911 is still occurring in 2011. If we are still stuck here than damn, no wonder we have the issues we do as a community.

Every black woman could wake up tomorrow without a weave in their head and the social issues that exists for blacks will still be there. So where does this really stand in the list of priorities. Its just not that serious in reality.

Another aspect to this is while we may know the roots of this sentiment in American culture, what about in African and Caribbean cultures where the weave has become very prevalent. What explains that when those countries are majority black primarily.

The easy answer would be to keep blaming the white man for that as well, but where does it end and personal insecurities and choices come into play.

My position is and remains a woman can do whatever she wants with her head, but that doesn't preclude a man from having his likes about it, on to the next one.

Give me real hair on a woman, no weaves please.

If some dudes like weaves that is their choice, but not mine.

I am not naive about the world, but are blacks forever doomed to being defined through the likes and dislikes of white folks. Are we really that weak.

 

[GQ Brotha]

point1-for the first 100 years, they were slaves, so i doubt they were worrying that much about their hair.

point2- alot of women have hair weaves, not just black women, and in regards to mustafa, he has dated women who have had hair extensions in their hair,neve campbell and kathy griffith.

point3- and in regards to the business world, i couldn't disagree with you more. the business world requires certain conservative standards of dress and hairstyle. to get a job you have to look a certain way, so personal choice is limited. their deal is, they lived in the real world, their opinions are based on their life experiences.

point4- it's not about worrying what white ppl think, we live in a large society and in this community we live and work with them, so their views affect our lives. it's not dwelling on anything, it's living.
who you date or don't date it's different from economic opportunities that are afforded to you or not.

Yes a lot of women make additions to their hair, usually not the whole damn head of false hair from someone else, and besides they aren't the one's who take offense to historical assertions about hair. White, Asian, Indian, many Latina women are a different ballgame entirely around the hair subject.

I think your point4 is rather telling of where things stand in the mentality of us as black folks.

If that is how we think then we will be forever be fighting an uphill battle for the approval of ignorant and bigoted folks who happen to be white.

Constantly seeking to prove ourselves as the different than, safe negro.

Do our views of white folks affect their lives on the flip side of things. Think about that.

Remarkable, maybe I'm a naive, overly driven and determined, overconfident, dark skinned black male in America that dates white women and just doesn't give a damn about what Joe Blow thinks of me.

Could I be the only one, I don't know.

 

[saintaugusta]

Yes a lot of women make additions to their hair, usually not the whole damn head of false hair from someone else, and besides they aren't the one's who take offense to historical assertions about hair. White, Asian, Indian, many Latina women are a different ballgame entirely around the hair subject.

I think your point4 is rather telling of where things stand in the mentality of us as black folks.

If that is how we think then we will be forever be fighting an uphill battle for the approval of ignorant and bigoted folks who happen to be white.

Constantly seeking to prove ourselves as the different than, safe negro.

Do our views of white folks affect their lives on the flip side of things. Think about that.

Remarkable, maybe I'm a naive, overly driven and determined, overconfident, dark skinned black male in America that dates white women and just doesn't give a damn about what Joe Blow thinks of me.

Could I be the only one, I don't know.

I'm sorry, but I really think that corporate environments in America are geared toward white Anglo-Saxon Protestants, and it is really sad. One day I made a "mistake" by wearing a head scarf into a casual job environment (one where people wore jeans) and was told I couldn't because you weren't allowed to wear head-gear UNLESS it had the logo of the company and was for promotional purposes - WTF???) - I said, "Well what if it was my religious belief that I had to wear a head covering?" and the ignorant buffoon said that that situation probably wouldn't happen. I couldn't believe my ears - it just showed his ignorance.

Muslim Women (orthodox/devout) are likely to wear head coverings - is this going to make them seem/look "less professional"?

Hindi or traditionally/culturally Indian women may wear traditional Indian attire or wear the dot on their forehead and/or facial jewelry and/or more jewelry than is considered "business appropriate attire" in a typical American business setting. Does this make them less professional or less knowledgeable? Should they have to completely abandon their culture?

To me it is a similar thing with African American women and their hair. American corporate culture is just going to have to get over its ignorance, and any harassment about natural hair should result in a lawsuit, in my opinion. That includes dreadlocks for men AND women, which can be based on religious beliefs. Dreadlocks can be kept neat and clean, contrary to some people's preconceived opinion. The mass view needs to be changed, and that can only come from litigation and sensitivity training.

Whoever wants to wear extensions should feel free to, but certainly, anyone who desires to be FREE to wear their OWN NATURAL hair should be FREE to do so, and anyone who objects, should face the repercussions.

I relate to this on a personal level to a degree, only because I have naturally spiral curls, and my mother always acts so pleased when I straighten them (about once every two years - which takes me about two days, and then they are only wavy) - it's like I am "better" when my hair is "tame", instead of "wild" and "out of control". I refuse to be a slave to society's love for conformed hair, and will allow my curls to be free every day - I wash my hair about once a week, and do not torture myself or spend thousands of hours and dollars trying to be someone I am not. Love me, love my beautiful untamed locks.

 

[GQ Brotha]

I'm sorry, but I really think that corporate environments in America are geared toward white Anglo-Saxon Protestants, and it is really sad. One day I made a "mistake" by wearing a head scarf into a casual job environment (one where people wore jeans) and was told I couldn't because you weren't allowed to wear head-gear UNLESS it had the logo of the company and was for promotional purposes - WTF???) - I said, "Well what if it was my religious belief that I had to wear a head covering?" and the ignorant buffoon said that that situation probably wouldn't happen. I couldn't believe my ears - it just showed his ignorance.

Muslim Women (orthodox/devout) are likely to wear head coverings - is this going to make them seem/look "less professional"?

Hindi or traditionally/culturally Indian women may wear traditional Indian attire or wear the dot on their forehead and/or facial jewelry and/or more jewelry than is considered "business appropriate attire" in a typical American business setting. Does this make them less professional or less knowledgeable? Should they have to completely abandon their culture?

To me it is a similar thing with African American women and their hair. American corporate culture is just going to have to get over its ignorance, and any harassment about natural hair should result in a lawsuit, in my opinion. That includes dreadlocks for men AND women, which can be based on religious beliefs. Dreadlocks can be kept neat and clean, contrary to some people's preconceived opinion. The mass view needs to be changed, and that can only come from litigation and sensitivity training.

Whoever wants to wear extensions should feel free to, but certainly, anyone who desires to be FREE to wear their OWN NATURAL hair should be FREE to do so, and anyone who objects, should face the repercussions.

I relate to this on a personal level to a degree, only because I have naturally spiral curls, and my mother always acts so pleased when I straighten them (about once every two years - which takes me about two days, and then they are only wavy) - it's like I am "better" when my hair is "tame", instead of "wild" and "out of control". I refuse to be a slave to society's love for conformed hair, and will allow my curls to be free every day - I wash my hair about once a week, and do not torture myself or spend thousands of hours and dollars trying to be someone I am not. Love me, love my beautiful untamed locks.

My sentiments exactly.

What should most matter is someone's ability to do the job, irrespective of their hair.

If a black woman needs to put in a lace front weave in her head to fit in, because her natural hair is deemed unwelcoming then what does that in of itself tell us.

Many a black women can wear their hair natural and still be presentable.

The idea of a weave being needed in a corporate environment is only further confirmation of what is at work.

What is being said is your natural hair is not welcomed.

 

[saintaugusta]

My sentiments exactly.

What should most matter is someone's ability to do the job, irrespective of their hair.

If a black woman needs to put in a lace front weave in her head to fit in, because her natural hair is deemed unwelcoming then what does that in of itself tell us.

Many a black women who are black can wear hair natural and still be presentable.

The idea of a weave being needed in a corporate environment is only further confirmation of what is at work.

I agree with you completely except to say... that ANYBODY should be able to go to work with their natural head/hair, no matter what, and do the job, as long as they are dressed professionally - the only problem I would have is with those nasty smelly nylon head-stockings that hoodrats wear, and with doo-rags in a professional environment, but if you're in a call center, I really don't see what the big deal is - it just depends on what type of call center, for example.

Any black woman should be able to wear her natural hair or go in absolutely bald-headed, as long as she's clean, same as any other woman. Black women don't corner the market on skanky, trust me on that. There are some skeezy looking white women with hair that looks like a dirty old dish rag that they should just cut off and start from scratch.

 

[GQ Brotha]

I agree with you completely except to say... that ANYBODY should be able to go to work with their natural head/hair, no matter what, and do the job, as long as they are dressed professionally - the only problem I would have is with those nasty smelly nylon head-stockings that hoodrats wear, and with doo-rags in a professional environment, but if you're in a call center, I really don't see what the big deal is - it just depends on what type of call center, for example.

Any black woman should be able to wear her natural hair or go in absolutely bald-headed, as long as she's clean, same as any other woman. Black women don't corner the market on skanky, trust me on that.

There are some skeezy looking white women with hair that looks like a dirty old dish rag that they should just cut off and start from scratch.

LOL, very true. Its all about personal presentation.

 

[dafty pukk]

Black women survived just fine for centuries in America without weaves in their head.

GQ,

Are you talking about during slavery, pre civil-rights, and before they were allowed to make any legitimate attempts to enter the predominately White mainstream or after all of that mess that technically and mostly ended 40 some years ago?

Lets be honest, if you are marginalized, how much freedom to do you have in making yourself look how you want?

Even still, plenty of Black women sported wigs in the day, or ran their heads through a hot comb. Hell even Malcolm-X had a conk at one point.

I'm not advocating the fact that Black women need to wear fake "straighter" hair, or that some Black men like that particular texture, I'm saying it's not a mystery why one discriminated class of citizens would emulate the citizens in authority when even their men profess to love the look of the ruling class female.

It's age-old.

And the answer to all this by black women today is to put ridiculous looking weaves in their heads to look like they have said features.

I hope you open your mind to the pain a woman hides behind all of that garbage.

- Daft

 

[GQ Brotha]

GQ,

Are you talking about during slavery, pre civil-rights, and before they were allowed to make any legitimate attempts to enter the predominately White mainstream or after all of that mess that technically and mostly ended 40 some years ago?

Lets be honest, if you are marginalized, how much freedom to do you have in making yourself look how you want?

Even still, plenty of Black women sported wigs in the day, or ran their heads through a hot comb. Hell even Malcolm-X had a conk at one point.

I'm not advocating the fact that Black women need to wear fake "straighter" hair, or that some Black men like that particular texture, I'm saying it's not a mystery why one discriminated class of citizens would emulate the citizens in authority when even their men profess to love the look of the ruling class female.

It's age-old.



I hope you open your mind to the pain a woman hides behind all of that garbage.

- Daft

Which is why to me natural hair is much more appealing.

It is what you are, love it and live it, irrespective of what ignorant folks may think. Be true to yourself.

Maybe I'm looking at this from my perspective in life when it comes to self confidence and respect. I define myself through my actions as a man who happens to be black.

I am very much aware of and comprehend all the historical components as a history grad, my passion is history. Even though you won't learn about this subject in a textbook, the matter is obvious to those who think critically.

By nature however I'm a minimalist, that also includes my taste in women.

I have no affinity for over the top and ostentatious in the concept of beauty.

That is clearly a personal thing since beauty varies from one person to the other.

However I much prefer a subtle, quiet beauty about a woman. Less is more.

 

[Rayban Man]

Big deal...he made a comment on "good hair"

guess this means he is a bad person

Some shit, just gets blown over board. Guess I wasnt offended because I myself have good hair. :smt003

 

[Ches]

I think it's a misconception that 'good' hair = white people hair. In my opinion, good hair is hair that's not killed off with chemicals, weaves and such. Natural, well taken care of, hair is 'good' hair. Even white people hair can be worse than bad.
I don't know what he meant by 'good' hair and no one else does. To say that we know exactly what this guy meant by 'good' hair is just jumping to conclusions and of couse everyone always jumps to the 'it's racist' conclusion.

Exactly what I was thinking as I read through here so far. Took the words right out of my mouth. I assumed "good" meant healthy, manageable, not needing alot of fuss. Alot of white people have terrible hair. It's too thick to manage or too thin/straight for most styles, it's been colored and permed, etc.

It wonders me that anyone would take it as good = white. *smh*

 

[briancali]

Exactly what I was thinking as I read through here so far. Took the words right out of my mouth. I assumed "good" meant healthy, manageable, not needing alot of fuss. Alot of white people have terrible hair. It's too thick to manage or too thin/straight for most styles, it's been colored and permed, etc.

It wonders me that anyone would take it as good = white. *smh*

It is not necessarily white, but it is anyone with uncoarse hair. I will give you some African examples, and how the way few black folks think.

http://www.kanuri.net/pic.php?pID=119
http://www.ethiopianreview.com/album/albums/userpics/10001/gelila_bekele.jpeg
http://www.kanuri.net/kanuri_and_their_neighbours2.php?aID=232&cID=

These are the examples of what some blacks considered so called good hair, due to the fact their hair texture is not coarse like most blacks. In other words its not necessarily racial, but anyone with uncoarse or Afro hair texture.

 

[xoxo]

I think part of the point GQ is getting at is that Black women are not admonished for however their displeasure with their natural hair manifests, while Black men that make comments like Mustafa are ridiculed; even though he was brought up in the similar conditions using to explain Black women's sensibility, he's not given the psychological kid gloves, just called an outright coon.

Black women are really only allowed to discuss the propriety regarding their hair. Black men, especially that go with White women, should not discuss Black women's decision on this matter. If you are fully interested in White women GQ, I suggest you follow this example because no matter what Black women do, you don't want them regardless.

 

[The Dark King]

I think part of the point GQ is getting at is that Black women are not admonished for however their displeasure with their natural hair manifests, while Black men that make comments like Mustafa are ridiculed; even though he was brought up in the similar conditions using to explain Black women's sensibility, he's not given the psychological kid gloves, just called an outright coon.

Black women are really only allowed to discuss the propriety regarding their hair. Black men, especially that go with White women, should not discuss Black women's decision on this matter. If you are fully interested in White women GQ, I suggest you follow this example because no matter what Black women do, you don't want them regardless.

But it doesn't mean I don't empathize with them especially being black and having bw in my life. I can't ignore the pain I see my sister my nieces my mom my aunts and my cousins go through.

 

[xoxo]

But it doesn't mean I don't empathize with them especially being black and having bw in my life. I can't ignore the pain I see my sister my nieces my mom my aunts and my cousins go through.

Black mens attraction to White women is the most direct action that will manifest whatever psychological issue some Black women have with their features, which is why they accuse us of having the same psychological issues for being with White women in the first place.

I'm not sure if having empathy for Black women and treating Black women in our family kindly in aspects related to their negatively seen qualities in society has any impact on their self-esteem if Black men in their life find White women more attractive partners.

I do know that when Black endogamy was nearly 100%, Black women were still not finding themselves beautiful, it's possible that affirmation from Black men is not good enough in a "White mans world". Maybe, it will take White dudes liking a natural Black woman's features for them to reach the insecurity level of the average White woman.

 

[The Dark King]

Black mens attraction to White women is the most direct action that will manifest whatever psychological issue some Black women have with their features, which is why they accuse us of having the same psychological issues for being with White women in the first place.

I'm not sure if having empathy for Black women and treating Black women in our family kindly in aspects related to their negatively seen qualities in society has any impact on their self-esteem if Black men in their life find White women more attractive partners.

I do know that when Black endogamy was nearly 100%, Black women were still not finding themselves beautiful, it's possible that affirmation from Black men is not good enough in a "White mans world". Maybe, it will take White dudes liking a natural Black woman's features for them to reach the insecurity level of the average White woman.

Well made point my friend and interestingly enough that's more common abroad then it is here.

 

[GQ Brotha]

Black women are really only allowed to discuss the propriety regarding their hair. Black men, especially that go with White women, should not discuss Black women's decision on this matter. If you are fully interested in White women GQ, I suggest you follow this example because no matter what Black women do, you don't want them regardless.

This is usually my tone and sentiments indeed when it comes to these subject matters. I just found the duplicitousness to be highly hypocritical when we look around us day to day. A do as I say not as I do maxim.

Black mens attraction to White women is the most direct action that will manifest whatever psychological issue some Black women have with their features, which is why they accuse us of having the same psychological issues for being with White women in the first place.

I'm not sure if having empathy for Black women and treating Black women in our family kindly in aspects related to their negatively seen qualities in society has any impact on their self-esteem if Black men in their life find White women more attractive partners.

I do know that when Black endogamy was nearly 100%, Black women were still not finding themselves beautiful, it's possible that affirmation from Black men is not good enough in a "White mans world". Maybe, it will take White dudes liking a natural Black woman's features for them to reach the insecurity level of the average White woman.

I treat every woman with respect across the board, even if I don't date them in my personal life I am respectful to all I interact with because that is how I carry myself as a man.

LOL at your last point "for them to reach the insecurity level of the average white woman."

I suppose so indeed.