why G-d punish the innocent and reward the evil ?

[The Dark King]

Thanks, Beloved. Good to know I seem to be making some kind of sense.

You know, one of the more interesting aspects of spiritual belief that I've seen ... I think there's something about it where most people somehow are not able to be very flexible at all, in their conceptualization or understanding of divinity. I mean, you'd expect that from people whose idea and understanding works for them -- they are comforted/guided in their existence by how conceive of a higher power.

It's strange to me that so many people seem to insist on definitions that make no sense to them ... what I mean is, I've had friends who were raised in strict fundamentalist homes, and as a result for the rest of their adult lives they will argue strongly about how there can be no God because the concept they were initially and primarily exposed to was not true.

Basically, the leap seems to be, "Because some have worshipped a false deity, there can be no sort of real deity." I guess it's a natural enough conclusion to leap to, but without much more information it's a flawed conclusion to leap to, from only the stated premise.

In the end tho, I guess it's not really a matter of logic at all, where ever you happen to end up in belief. I was raised in a pretty religious family, and though the way I believe is pretty different from the rest of my family, I'm still definitely not an atheist. Because I've experienced too much to believe there is nothing greater than Man in the universe, and all life really is just a sort of cosmic accident...

I think perhaps we are meant to seek/create the meaning/purpose of our own existence, and that this is meant to be our spiritual work -- I mean, distinct from simply obeying a long list of draconian rules, I'd think our self-awareness would be a clue that we are meant as more active partners than that.

This I agree with. I just think a lot of people are too lazy to truly think. There is an arrogant know it all pov that people cling so tightly to and that's both sides. There's a quote I've always loved "I believe in very little but have ideas about much"

 

[donsboy]

Its been a really bad week for me. My cousin died on Tues.. And a long time family friend died this morning. I've missed a lot of this conversation yesterday and hope maybe we can revisit this topic later because I've got some questions I'd like to ask each of you and see if I can understand your backgrounds and try to see how each of us got to where we are and maybe share some about my life and experiences.

 

[The Dark King]

Its been a really bad week for me. My cousin died on Tues.. And a long time family friend died this morning. I've missed a lot of this conversation yesterday and hope maybe we can revisit this topic later because I've got some questions I'd like to ask each of you and see if I can understand your backgrounds and try to see how each of us got to where we are and maybe share some about my life and experiences.

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss fam. Take some time and heal.

 

[Cyrus]

Its been a really bad week for me. My cousin died on Tues.. And a long time family friend died this morning. I've missed a lot of this conversation yesterday and hope maybe we can revisit this topic later because I've got some questions I'd like to ask each of you and see if I can understand your backgrounds and try to see how each of us got to where we are and maybe share some about my life and experiences.

Really sorry to hear of your loss. Yeah, absolutely we can get back to the topic later -- I'm sure we'll all be here, and I for one never tire of the topic. In the meantime, take care of yourself, take care of your loved ones...

 

[dj4monie]

I've come to three possible conclusions : 1) there is an all-powerful god but he/she/it doesn't feel compassion for humans and other animals, 2) God does feel compassion for other sentient beings but he/she/it isn't all-powerful and is not in a position to help us, as much as he/she/it wants to and 3) there is no god.

Likely answer - 3

 

[goodlove]

First, don, you are right -- you also never said people who think the bible doesn't have the answers, necessarily never read the bible. I was reading in. My bad.



Who are we to question the sovereign of the universe? Ones who were made in His image, that's who. See, I don't think God looks like us -- I doubt God would even have a physical image. It is our free will, our sovereignty of at least our own heart and mind, that make us like God.

Where were we when he did amazing things we can't even imagine? Well, why do we care about any of that, exactly? It concerns us, how? See, I'm actually fine with someone/thing that doesn't need me just ignoring me. But if you're talking to me? Well, 'fraid I'm going to be sharing my opinion. Your being the divine creator of everything, or no.

See, this is what I mean about a lot of the bible making God sound like an asshole -- and again, no offense meant to anybody, and really sincere apologies and all that -- but really, you're the all-powerful-God-of-everything, and you're afraid of my opinion? Hell, my mom let me speak my mind and question her when I was like 6 or 7, for Christ's sake. I'd think the ultimate divine being should not only hear me out, but in the end explain to me exactly why I was wrong in the first place.

And that's a key thing when it comes to the Book of Job.

Why did God allow the devil to test Job? His most faithful and loyal servant, who he knew would never deny him. He knew he wouldn't. So, for a wager -- to prove something to the most evil being in existence -- he not only tortured the guy, but he killed everyone he loved.

And see, that's a part that doesn't get quite enough focus, in my opinion. Donsboy, you love your mom, right? So, if we kill her, can we just replace her later with a mom who is ten times better, and it would be all good?

It doesn't work like that with human beings.

I think the bible was written, and has been translated quite a bit, by humans.

That doesn't mean there is no God. But it might mean the bible can't answer everything for everyone.

very well stated

the devil says no one will serve God loyally. God allows him time to prove his claim. He gave us the ability to choose for ourselves. Why should we serve god? He made us. He has given us everything. He has never done anything bad to us. All the problems in our world are of our own making. If Adam doesn't eat the fruit we have no problems. Satan. Is destroyed and life goes on as God intended. Adam forsook his creator for a piece of fruit. god is not responsible for Adams bad decision. God had the right to destroy his disobedient thieving son and all his prospective children. Whaat did god do he set in motion redemption for us. He loves us. The least we can do is be loyal children and be obedient because his laws are for our good.

Do you have any clue how ridiculous this sounds? The old testament is filled with stories of how God punished people mercilessly. Making humanity responsible for the "mistake" of one person is cruel fam. To "give" us free will only to wait for us to make mistakes so that he can punish us for eternity sounds sadistic.

the free will I understand but we were punished for a foolish act of one but that happens even today

you got it twisted bro. God created a perfect man with free will. When he disobeyed he became imperfect. We as his children inherited his imperfection. God is not holding Adams mistake against us. He actually redeemed us with the blood of Christ. god is still showing love for us. He wants us to come to know him and love him. He has promised eternal life in paradise with no suffering and no death to those who choose to accept his right tto decide as our creator what's best for us. If we choose to reject his direction ok fine but be prepared for the consequences. He is the master of the universe and it is ultimately up to him as to wh lives in his world.

Its been a really bad week for me. My cousin died on Tues.. And a long time family friend died this morning. I've missed a lot of this conversation yesterday and hope maybe we can revisit this topic later because I've got some questions I'd like to ask each of you and see if I can understand your backgrounds and try to see how each of us got to where we are and maybe share some about my life and experiences.

hang tuff. it will get better

 

[reggie2k8]

You see it all the time babies born with some type of illness or good parents unable to conceive children but people who abuse kids and kill them are popping them out like it is their fulltime job.

how about babies born in poverty and other born in wealth. why ?

then you read in the bible where it states G-d knows the hairs on your head but is testing you to see what is in your heart . so if G-d is all knowing then why test you ?

why do you see evil people get off and the victims suffer and the righteous forsaken ? example i have seen people report crimes against them and the police drag their feet and move with extreme antipathy. when the criminal get caught if ever they get off light and the victim has to expend excessive amount of time to recover...why is that the innocent suffer the righteous looked over, the victims get victimize over and over while the evil get rewared and spared punishment ?

why should we believe in G-d ?

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

 

[The Dark King]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Damn Reg that was deep

 

[goodlove]

Sorry all I hear is blah blah blah obedience blah blah blah you'll be rewarded after you've given your life to benefit the wealthy who get to be happy now and in "the next life".
Anyone who requires you to submit to them in order to love you and accept you doesn't love you or accept you. I don't have to submit to the will my family or friends but they love me. So I would hope the master of the universe's capacity to love would be far greater than that of a puny human.
I'm not trying to bash your belief and I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I did eight years of catholic school and seven years of hardcore theology so I'm very aware of what you're saying is in the bible but it doesn't make sense. All I see when I read the bible is a tool to subject the masses to the will of the rich. You should read the communist manifesto it might change your perspective.

LOL

It's simple: we shouldn't believe in "God". I don't think I've ever come across a more easily answerable question.

why ?

Me too Andrae,

I've seen and experienced too many spiritual things, both before I was a Christian, and since I've become one, not to believe.

I don't see God in the same way that the majority of Christians see Him, and some of my views make other Christians go.......:smt119.......hahahaha.

out standing post. majority of the christians have the tendancy to believe if you dont think like I do then you will do to hell. if you are not in my religion then you will go to hell.

I had a christian say that (after I told them I was studying with the Jews...they didnt know I was converting..) what can the jews tell you about Christ. I replied Christ is a Jew. Christ also stated that Salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22 and they were pissed. then they replied are you trying to evangelize to them ?

I stated no. they replied " you should that is your job"

my response was " Not in their place of worship Im not."

they stated "but it is your job" . I replied " Im not going to go to your house and rearrange your furniture just because I dont like it...would you want me to do that to your home ? then do go to someone elses and do it"

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

then why he allow it ?

 

[reggie2k8]

Damn Reg that was deep

I didn't come up with that. I wish I did but I can't remember who said it.

 

[Tamstrong]

Where do u find narcissism in God allowing the devil to prove his point? God said there was noone like his servant Job. The devil caused all the suffering not God. He allows us to do what we wish because we say and the devil says we don't need God. God only made one rule in the beginning don't eat off my tree. That rule is to prove he has authority over us because he made us. God is universal sovereign because he made everything. When we reject his sovreignty we say you can't tell me what to do. Its the same with parents and children. its way more than can be discussed in this forum. But if you want some real answers they can be found in the bible if you read with an open mind.

I love the bible & I haven't found any lack of answers. I have NEVER come across any contadictions either.

Wow, we have a massively differing viewpoint on this babe. I do believe religion in general has been used to control the masses throughout the ages, however that doesn't make the concept of God any less valid in my mind. As I've said before I know without a doubt that He exists, which may appear illogical on the surface, however to me faith is the one area of life that will always defy logic... anything you cannot see, hear, taste, touch or prove is illogical, and yet I believe.

As to the question goodlove posed, donsboy is correct that the Bible contains answers and explanations, but few people truly read it, preferring to take someone else's word for it's contents. While I do believe in God and am a faithful person, I do not take anyone else's word on anything scriptural, I read and interpret it for myself.

We are responsible for our own souls, and therefore responsible for reading, learning & understanding God's word for ourselves. Even the bible tells us to not to believe everything others tell us but to find out for ourselves.

God is not dictating our entire lives. He has given us free will to make our own decisions but he tells us we are liable to answer for the choices we make.

"You see it all the time babies born with some type of illness or good parents unable to conceive children but people who abuse kids and kill them are popping them out like it is their fulltime job.

how about babies born in poverty and other born in wealth. why ?"

Well, the son of God wasn't born to a rich family. It was on purpose to show that Christ could grow up using his up bringing and environment to shape him to the adult he grew to be....later to discover the God he really was.

then you read in the bible where it states G-d knows the hairs on your head but is testing you to see what is in your heart . so if G-d is all knowing then why test you ?

Because he gave you free will....he knows you have the will to do wrong just as much the will to do good and live according to his will. He takes more delight when you choose to defy sin and do his will, than to force it upon you.


why do you see evil people get off and the victims suffer and the righteous forsaken ? example i have seen people report crimes against them and the police drag their feet and move with extreme antipathy. when the criminal get caught if ever they get off light and the victim has to expend excessive amount of time to recover...why is that the innocent suffer the righteous looked over, the victims get victimize over and over while the evil get rewared and spared punishment ?

Nobody suffered more than Christ did on the cross...nobody. The Lord says, that we should always forgive for vengeance would be his. You see, God see's the victims and feels their pain. He also hears as they call out to him. In turn he is slow to act but when he does...you will know it.

why should we believe in G-d ?

Because he loves and believes in you...even when you continue to reject him.

In my life I have found that there has always been a purpose behind all the bad things that have happened in my life. (Some were my fault & some weren't.) If we know & understand this, nothing that happens to us is in vain. At one point in my life I hit bottom, and my life was hell. I believed I was being punished for my mistakes, and that was why things kept getting worse. The truth was that it was getting worse because God was trying to get my attention, but it took me a while to get it (I was like the prodigal son). When I finally did, it made all the difference. I made my way back home to God. Not only did my life improve; I was much stronger. I believe that if I hadn't been tempered through suffering, I wouldn't be as strong as I am.

Thats why when things happen in this world, I try to remember that God knows what He's doing & that nothing He does is in vain.

 

[smurfette]

@Tamstrong

I admire your strength and faith in God. It takes people a whole life time to realize and accept what you accepted and realized.

When I am through some sh*t and look back I can see some purpose to it or realize how it helped me develop as a person.

Now while I am in the sh*t it is quite a different story...
I'd rather like to go like :smt067

alternately like :smt093 and sometimes :smt010

I guess I failed a lot of tests and challenges God sent me to develop and learn

 

[LaydeezmanCris]

The God we worship is indeed a jealous God, and such he simply wants one thing from us as human beings - acknowledgment. I remember one time - during catechism in preparation for my 1st Holy Communion, i think - I asked the catechist what I should give God in return for all the things she asked to list that we got for birthdays, Christmas etc. And she said to me, "God only wants you to say thank you."

The gist of this is that too often, we do things that contradict what the most High Lord demands and as such, he takes retribution on us because he wants you to remember that there is no one but him. He's the Most High, and sometimes as humans, we tend to forget that nothing we have or do is of our being, but of the Lord's. Often it may seem like the Lord punishes the innocent, but I tell you, there's a greater reward in heaven. Mostly, it's largely due to previous transgressions the person may no longer remember, or something else. To be truthful, man's ways are not the ways of the Most High.

 

[z]

The God we worship is indeed a jealous God, and such he simply wants one thing from us as human beings - acknowledgment. I remember one time - during catechism in preparation for my 1st Holy Communion, i think - I asked the catechist what I should give God in return for all the things she asked to list that we got for birthdays, Christmas etc. And she said to me, "God only wants you to say thank you."

The gist of this is that too often, we do things that contradict what the most High Lord demands and as such, he takes retribution on us because he wants you to remember that there is no one but him. He's the Most High, and sometimes as humans, we tend to forget that nothing we have or do is of our being, but of the Lord's. Often it may seem like the Lord punishes the innocent, but I tell you, there's a greater reward in heaven. Mostly, it's largely due to previous transgressions the person may no longer remember, or something else. To be truthful, man's ways are not the ways of the Most High.

Raise Up, stand up for Jesus!

 

[DJ_1985]

I didn't come up with that. I wish I did but I can't remember who said it.

It's Epicurus, and that's one of my favorite quotes. He was so ahead of his time. Christians and others can't really respond to it head on and so, like with many points that they can't address, they try to sidestep it or get overly emotional.

 

[DJ_1985]

I love the bible & I haven't found any lack of answers. I have NEVER come across any contadictions either.

Since literature that was written thousands of years ago is open to so many different interpretations it's not really surprising that people can make sense out of the Bible, however bizarre that "sense" may be.

 

[goodlove]

The God we worship is indeed a jealous God, and such he simply wants one thing from us as human beings - acknowledgment. I remember one time - during catechism in preparation for my 1st Holy Communion, i think - I asked the catechist what I should give God in return for all the things she asked to list that we got for birthdays, Christmas etc. And she said to me, "God only wants you to say thank you."

The gist of this is that too often, we do things that contradict what the most High Lord demands and as such, he takes retribution on us because he wants you to remember that there is no one but him. He's the Most High, and sometimes as humans, we tend to forget that nothing we have or do is of our being, but of the Lord's. Often it may seem like the Lord punishes the innocent, but I tell you, there's a greater reward in heaven. Mostly, it's largely due to previous transgressions the person may no longer remember, or something else. To be truthful, man's ways are not the ways of the Most High.

so does my 8 year old daughter but you dont see her vexing innocent people with MS, blindness, slavery ect.. and the justice system sending innocent people to death row.

 

[The Dark King]

so does my 8 year old daughter but you dont see her vexing innocent people with MS, blindness, slavery ect.. and the justice system sending innocent people to death row.

Again you give God way too much credit and power. I think its better to think of God as a kid with an ant farm. Sometimes he's interested but for the most part he goes about his business and leaves us to our own lives.

 

[goodlove]

Again you give God way too much credit and power. I think its better to think of God as a kid with an ant farm. Sometimes he's interested but for the most part he goes about his business and leaves us to our own lives.

LOL. tried to rep ya

 

[Tamstrong]

:smt023

@Tamstrong

I admire your strength and faith in God. It takes people a whole life time to realize and accept what you accepted and realized.

When I am through some sh*t and look back I can see some purpose to it or realize how it helped me develop as a person.

Now while I am in the sh*t it is quite a different story...
I'd rather like to go like :smt067

alternately like :smt093 and sometimes :smt010

I guess I failed a lot of tests and challenges God sent me to develop and learn

Thanks Smurfette! We all go through our share of shit in life & sometimes we don't handle it well or learn from it the lessons God is trying to teach. After all, we're only human. Don't look at it as failure when you mess up; we all mess up. The only one to walk the earth who was perfect was Jesus, & He died & rose again so we could have the opportunity to rise with Him. Hang in there!

The God we worship is indeed a jealous God, and such he simply wants one thing from us as human beings - acknowledgment. I remember one time - during catechism in preparation for my 1st Holy Communion, i think - I asked the catechist what I should give God in return for all the things she asked to list that we got for birthdays, Christmas etc. And she said to me, "God only wants you to say thank you."

The gist of this is that too often, we do things that contradict what the most High Lord demands and as such, he takes retribution on us because he wants you to remember that there is no one but him. He's the Most High, and sometimes as humans, we tend to forget that nothing we have or do is of our being, but of the Lord's. Often it may seem like the Lord punishes the innocent, but I tell you, there's a greater reward in heaven. Mostly, it's largely due to previous transgressions the person may no longer remember, or something else. To be truthful, man's ways are not the ways of the Most High.

Very well said.

Raise Up, stand up for Jesus!

"You can't take my joy devil!" from "Stomp" God's Property/Kirk Franklin