Zombie Fans : Walking Dead Season 2 Starts Tonight.

[The Dark King]

If you stop looking at the entire situation from a rational and civilized perspective, the shit makes perfect sense. Stop looking at the zombies and the virus that created them as the threat to be overcome. Living humans are the threat. Always have been from the start.

Everything and everyone is now on the primal level. Everything is playing out on a pack/tribal level. Rick's group essentially started off for all intents and purposes as a pack. Coming to and joining Alexandra, they are now a tribe.


Think about all the various groups of people that have been shown since the second season. From that small group that Rick in crew encounter when they were on Hershel's farm, to Woodbury, Terminus, the Reavers that Darryl spent a short time, the Atlanta Hospital Group that took Beth, the Wolves and leading to Alexandria, Hilltop, The Saviors and the upcoming next week Kingdom, all of it is pack/tribal based in some manner.

Exactly and everyone in these packs came in volunatarily they weren't forced in like Negan's group. They had a sense of protect ourselves from outsiders not this system of invasion where the leader is brutal for brutality sake. I would totally agree with what you're saying if it wasn't for the way people get into his group in the first place. Again remember the stop on the road with Darryl, Sasha, and Abraham. Dude laid it out this all belongs to Negan you now work for Negan we are going to kill one of so you know we mean business. So the induction into the group starts off with the murder of one of your own and then in world of scarcity you are forced to give up half of what you own and top that continue to provide half of what you produce. I just don't get how that's sustainable in a world where EVERYONE has access to guns, it's not like third world countries where they not only limit access but have better weapons and technology. We're talking about a completely even playing field here. All I keep thinking is what stops a group of 6 snipers from putting down his whole crew including him. Even if you don't win you can cut his numbers down tremendously.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Exactly and everyone in these packs came in volunatarily they weren't forced in like Negan's group.

None of the people are being forced to be a part of The Saviors.

Negan & the Savior's are basically doing a play on "the Grasshopper & the Ant". The Saviors are predatory "grasshoppers" and all of the communities they come across they are using as "ants", to collect whatever food and resources they produce or come across in other ways. They may take someone from a community to serve the Saviors in a direct capacity or hold people as a hostage to get specific compliance from a community.

And with Darryl, Negan obviously will try to win him over into voluntarily becoming a Savior rather than force him to.

 

[darkcurry]

There's no brainwashing involved. It's basic primal status quo. Everybody is not an alpha dog type looking to be THE top dog in every situation. As long as they have some type of status and power, especially over anyone they perceive as weaker/beneath them, some people will go with the flow.

Uh there's always at least some brainwashing when it comes to human being having power. You mean to tell me his followers are free to think and do whatever they want? What if one of them decides to want to leave the gang or disagrees with Negan?

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Uh there's always at least some brainwashing when it comes to human being having power. You mean to tell me his followers are free to think and do whatever they want? What if one of them decides to want to leave the gang or disagrees with Negan?

Remember Dwight? The guy with Darryl's crossbow. Do you notice anything about him that's different from his first run-in with Darryl when he was trying to get away from the Saviors and his re-appearance? Look at his face. The left side in fact. Hmmmmm......now he's back on board with Negan......

And recall when Carol and Maggie had their encounter with those Saviors? Remember the one interrogating Maggie had one of her fingers missing and said something about losing it for stealing gas from the Saviors' compound or something to that effect?


Consequences and Repercussions for Ones Actions. Especially if it effects the Saviors as a whole in a negative way. Or haven't you been paying attention.....

 

[Stizzy]

Remember Dwight? The guy with Darryl's crossbow. Do you notice anything about him that's different from his first run-in with Darryl when he was trying to get away from the Saviors and his re-appearance? Look at his face. The left side in fact. Hmmmmm......now he's back on board with Negan......

And recall when Carol and Maggie had their encounter with those Saviors? Remember the one interrogating Maggie had one of her fingers missing and said something about losing it for stealing gas from the Saviors' compound or something to that effect?


Consequences and Repercussions for Ones Actions. Especially if it effects the Saviors as a whole in a negative way. Or haven't you been paying attention.....

Nice.

 

[andreboba]

Remember Dwight? The guy with Darryl's crossbow. Do you notice anything about him that's different from his first run-in with Darryl when he was trying to get away from the Saviors and his re-appearance? Look at his face. The left side in fact. Hmmmmm......now he's back on board with Negan......

And recall when Carol and Maggie had their encounter with those Saviors? Remember the one interrogating Maggie had one of her fingers missing and said something about losing it for stealing gas from the Saviors' compound or something to that effect?


Consequences and Repercussions for Ones Actions. Especially if it effects the Saviors as a whole in a negative way. Or haven't you been paying attention.....

Just a hypothetical since we're talking about a fictional TV show.....

How many of Rick's crew do you think secretly hate him and want to see him die??

Now, how many of the Saviors do you think privately hate Negan and want him dead??


Fear of death and physical punishment only works but for so long as a leadership model.

I just don't understand how one man is able to keep a group of that many people together offering them little more than security in numbers.
I would imagine it's highly stressful and traumatic to be 'down' with the Saviors.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Just a hypothetical since we're talking about a fictional TV show.....

How many of Rick's crew do you think secretly hate him and want to see him die??

Now, how many of the Saviors do you think privately hate Negan and want him dead??


Fear of death and physical punishment only works but for so long as a leadership model.

I just don't understand how one man is able to keep a group of that many people together offering them little more than security in numbers.
I would imagine it's highly stressful and traumatic to be 'down' with the Saviors.

How do gang leaders and organized crime bosses keep their operations ranks filled? No one forces those people into those particular situations. Why are some of ya'll having a hard time with the idea of some people following some one for their own self serving interests & reasons? Not everyone is a moral person or respects civilized order.

 

[The Dark King]

How do gang leaders and organized crime bosses keep their operations ranks filled? No one forces those people into those particular situations. Why are some of ya'll having a hard time with the ideal of some people following some one for their own self serving interests & reasons? Not everyone is a moral person or respects civilized order.

Because of the way they join. Fear and intimidation sounds like it works?

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Because of the way they join. Fear and intimidation sounds like it works?

So people join gangs strictly out of fear and intimidation? What about hate groups or terrorist cells? Why do people join those? No rational benefits from joining either of those but people join for what reasons then?

 

[meowkittenmeow]

It's the difference between shooting someone in the head compared to killing someone, chopping up their bodyparts and feeding them to walkers in front of their loved ones.

One killer is a murderer. The other is a sadist.

Negan leans much closer to the latter, talking to his victims with their skulls caved in and bleeding to death.

When you prolong the death experience to satisfy your own perverse pleasure, that's not 'normal'.

Most sadists who rule countries do that shit in private because it's so offensive to the sensibilities of most people.

But Negan does it in public, and we're supposed to believe his people are either cool with it or too afraid of ONE MAN to object.

I don't see that logically from a narrative standpoint.

I would agree with you if the population wasn't so small in TWD universe. As I mentioned before, these are small groups, not huge countries filled with millions.

 

[meowkittenmeow]

I agree with Boba I don't get how everyone is willing to follow a barbarian like that. And remember his tactic isn't us vs them it's do what I say or what I did to your best friend husband son father lover will happen to you. This wasn't just about him kill8ng their men this is how they intimidate people. It's their way of showing we're in charge and we dont give a fuck. That's the part that's so far fetched for me. Most asshole dictators use others as catalyst to give reason for this thing, here are the people to blame but his tactics rely on people being so afraid of his brutality they won't do anything against him. I'm world of literal monsters he's just another man. Fuck his army he has to sleep he has to eat he has to let his guard down. And if his common practice is killing loved ones in front of people then how hard is it to recruit people to stand against him too.

I would address this, but I am not entirely sure how true to the comics they are going to be this season. So, the dynamics of his group will have to be revealed later on.

 

[meowkittenmeow]

Hitler got away with genocide because he HID HIS HORRIFIC CRIMES from the majority of German citizens.

If Hitler set up gas chambers in Berlin he would have been overthrown IMO in less than 2 years.


The Governor hid his own sadistic tendencies from most of his people.

Negan is doing his sick shit in front of ALL of his ARMED Saviors.


Most people will eat sausage and hamburger, but not if they have to watch how it was made.

Negan isn't showing the Saviors he's a tough, strong leader.
He's demonstrating to his followers by pulverizing the skulls of Abraham and Glenn that he's a monster.

Fear(of retribution) is a powerful motivator for most people.
Horror is not.

The 'best' dictators make their enemies disappear, they don't slaughter them in public.

He hid it from the public to a degree. He didn't hide it from his soldiers and trusted officers who ran the camps. I am willing to bet that the number of people Negan has in his group is much smaller than the number of people who knew of and or worked at the camps. So, it is a pretty safe bet that this would work. As I mentioned in a previous post, I am not entirely sure how true they will stay to the comics, so the dynamics of "Negan's Army" will have to reveal themselves.

 

[The Dark King]

I would address this, but I am not entirely sure how true to the comics they are going to be this season. So, the dynamics of his group will have to be revealed later on.

Fair enough

 

[darkcurry]

Remember Dwight? The guy with Darryl's crossbow. Do you notice anything about him that's different from his first run-in with Darryl when he was trying to get away from the Saviors and his re-appearance? Look at his face. The left side in fact. Hmmmmm......now he's back on board with Negan......

And recall when Carol and Maggie had their encounter with those Saviors? Remember the one interrogating Maggie had one of her fingers missing and said something about losing it for stealing gas from the Saviors' compound or something to that effect?


Consequences and Repercussions for Ones Actions. Especially if it effects the Saviors as a whole in a negative way. Or haven't you been paying attention.....

No one is born evil. I'm not saying that the people following aren't good or as bad as he is, I'm saying point blank anyone with a following has been convinced and bought into what they are selling, but when it is the way of gangs with these consequences and directed by scare tactics, that is playing into a person's psyche... I mean there is an upcoming scene where his followers are kneeling as he walks by. Getting respect by way of fear especially extreme fear isn't really respect and for him to get these people to not realize they outnumber him camp by camp that takes conditioning. Like I said some are clearly just as sadistic as he is, but those type of people unless brainwashed are uncontrollable.

 

[archangel]

Spoiler

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

No one is born evil. I'm not saying that the people following aren't good or as bad as he is, I'm saying point blank anyone with a following has been convinced and bought into what they are selling, but when it is the way of gangs with these consequences and directed by scare tactics, that is playing into a person's psyche... I mean there is an upcoming scene where his followers are kneeling as he walks by. Getting respect by way of fear especially extreme fear isn't really respect and for him to get these people to not realize they outnumber him camp by camp that takes conditioning. Like I said some are clearly just as sadistic as he is, but those type of people unless brainwashed are uncontrollable.

Sigh......

Talking strictly from watching what has transpired on the TV series and not from anything that may be in the comics, but does anyone in Rick's group or Alexandria worship or kneel to him? How did he earn their respect and loyalty? How and why does Negan being sadistic automatically mean he clearly has brainwashed people into following him?

It's about survival in a zombie apocalypse. If he has done a good job of providing for the group of people he is leading thus far, despite how extreme his methods may be, why wouldn't he have garnered some type of loyalty and respect from the people he has gathered under him?

 

[Stizzy]

Sigh......

Talking strictly from watching what has transpired on the TV series and not from anything that may be in the comics, but does anyone in Rick's group or Alexandria worship or kneel to him? How did he earn their respect and loyalty? How and why does Negan being sadistic automatically mean he clearly has brainwashed people into following him?

It's about survival in a zombie apocalypse. If he has done a good job of providing for the group of people he is leading thus far, despite how extreme his methods may be, why wouldn't he have garnered some type of loyalty and respect from the people he has gathered under him?

And his followers seem to be just that, followers. He didn't make the hilltop live on his compound. He didn't make Rick them live on his compound. WHere are people getting that hes making people stay there through force or brainwashing??? I don't get it.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

And his followers seem to be just that, followers. He didn't make the hilltop live on his compound. He didn't make Rick them live on his compound. WHere are people getting that hes making people stay there through force or brainwashing??? I don't get it.

They are probably taking the whole "You work for Negan/You work for me now" literate and so all the groups that the Saviors have run the mob strong arm racket on are now incorporated into of the Saviors as a whole.

 

[andreboba]

They are probably taking the whole "You work for Negan/You work for me now" literate and so all the groups that the Saviors have run the mob strong arm racket on are now incorporated into of the Saviors as a whole.

Negan had about 30-50 Saviors with him in the latest episode of TWD. I assume those are HIS true people and the ones who live directly with him.

I don't think keeping your group members safe from zombies and other marauding groups of human survivors is enough to attract a following in a dystopian, predatory reality.

Survival is a PART of Rick and his crew's prime objective, but they're also trying to create some sense of community, humanity and social order.


See for instance when Maggie told Rick and the others to leave her alone with Glen's remains, ostensibly so she could bury him.

Rick and the others said NO. Abe and Glenn were their family too and they would all be involved in giving them a proper burial.

If this had happened to two of NEgan's followers, I feel like Negan would have left their corpses right there in the middle of the road.

Maybe none of the Saviors would have objected, but that callousness and lack of remorse directed at his own people is how groups become fractured.

Even in criminal gangs or a mafia family.

My only beef is from a narrative one.
I have a hard time understanding how a dude like Negan would have that many people under his sway.
Even gangbangers need to feel like their #1 on some level gives a shit about THEM, and I can't see anyone ever feeling that way about Negan.

LOL. I just read today that some TWD fans were going to have a hard time watching the show because it was approaching A Game Of Thrones level of sadism.

I totally get that and it's what I saw occurring on Sunday night.

 

[darkcurry]

And his followers seem to be just that, followers. He didn't make the hilltop live on his compound. He didn't make Rick them live on his compound. WHere are people getting that hes making people stay there through force or brainwashing??? I don't get it.

Because you guys are thinking Im talking about Rick, Alexandria and the people on Hilltop. They don't like him, they hate to have to negotiate with him, I'm also not saying it's because he is a sadistrolleyes. Scare tactics are a form of brainwashing, doesn't mean it is working on everyone. Anytime you look at some one like "big, bad dude", "don't want to fuck with him", ect. you are referencing them in terms of fear.

Anytime you get people to kneel to you like his loyal followers do, and they are not like a father figure or anything like that. Hell some people don't even kneel to their parents. What is he doing that is believable for his followers to admire him the way they do. I'm not buying the whole "he can provide for them, and "It's about survival in a zombie apocalypse" thing it's too weak for an army that big, it has to be something stronger.

If you and Ra where living in a zombie apocalypse would you follow somebody like Negan?

But we will see how things play out when they delve into the story with him and his followers.