Emma Watson's Response To Being Called A White Feminist

[andreboba]

Feminism always loses me when they bemoan the way men treat women and I always have to ask which men? Not all of us are part of the patriarchy in fact black men are the least likely threat in this country. Compared to our female counterparts we are disadvantaged in every single metric of power yet we get lumped in. It's sickening when someone tries to tell me I'm a man I don't get it or I'm part of the patriarchy. Simple truth is the power structure they call the patriarchy is only for rich white men and most times WASPs.
For a group who's foundation is based on equality, intersectionality, and nuance they constantly miss this point. When here women say "men should shut up and listen" which men are you referring to because 1. how do we have a meaningful dialogue if you're the only one talking and 2. assuming my position is anti woman from the get go creates walls to allies. Sorry to break it to you but the path to equality can't be done with women alone. Unlike race we can't segregate and keep the species going not to mention the natural drives that will always push us together instead of apart.
I'm still waiting for feminist to describe what they want from the average man. How do we fight the patriarchy you want us to fight. Why do you even call it the patriarchy? Would it be too accurate to calling white male supremacy? Would it be too hard to stop pretending that men of color especially in this country have the power to oppress anyone?

BM within the Black community definitely have the ability to subordinate BW, just as Asian men do to Asian women, Hispanic men to Hispanic women, etc.

I think it's more about a man's general attitude towards women as a whole, not whether he literally has the power to keep her in a secondary position.

It would sort of be like a poor White person telling me they can't be racist specifically towards me because they don't have the power or authority to affect my life or employment.

Having the actual power to enforce your biases is one way to define patriarchy, or racism, but patriarchy for most women is first experienced in the home.

 

[K]

When there is not a clear definition, there is bound to be problems.

If people are not in agreement with what the definition of what they are discussing/debating is, it makes it impossible to further the conversation.

 

[Beasty]

But that's the point, you feel there is one definition of feminism... yours.
It simply isn't the case.
Just as there isn't one definition of Christianity.
These things are subjective, which is why applying such terms as labels and passing judgement based on that is fraught with dangers and, at best, likely to cause as many problems as it solves.

There are those that believe in Jesus. Then there are others that believe in fat jesus......lol.

 

[Beasty]

BM within the Black community definitely have the ability to subordinate BW, just as Asian men do to Asian women, Hispanic men to Hispanic women, etc.

I think it's more about a man's general attitude towards women as a whole, not whether he literally has the power to keep her in a secondary position.

It would sort of be like a poor White person telling me they can't be racist specifically towards me because they don't have the power or authority to affect my life or employment.

Having the actual power to enforce your biases is one way to define patriarchy, or racism, but patriarchy for most women is first experienced in the home.

Honestly who cares about someone else's attitude?? Who can give a rats ass about how ugly a person is if that person doesn't affect your life??

Paul Mooney explained it best "If I stand on the corner with a knife screaming that I'm gonna kill, does that make me a murderer? No. I'm not a murderer unless I kill someone."

There is a big difference between those that say and those that do.

 

[meowkittenmeow]

But that's the point, you feel there is one definition of feminism... yours.
It simply isn't the case.
Just as there isn't one definition of Christianity.
These things are subjective, which is why applying such terms as labels and passing judgement based on that is fraught with dangers and, at best, likely to cause as many problems as it solves.

No, you aren't understanding. I take the actual definition of feminism (dictionary version), then compare that to how feminists actually work in practice.

You seem to have your own definition regardless of the dictionary which is fine. I wish you the best with that and I am glad you found happiness in it.

But, please understand that I am interested in the dictionary definition as well as the good and bad that it does. I am not interested in personal/individual definitions that aren't found in the dictionary. I hope this clarifies.

 

[meowkittenmeow]

BM within the Black community definitely have the ability to subordinate BW, just as Asian men do to Asian women, Hispanic men to Hispanic women, etc.

I think it's more about a man's general attitude towards women as a whole, not whether he literally has the power to keep her in a secondary position.

It would sort of be like a poor White person telling me they can't be racist specifically towards me because they don't have the power or authority to affect my life or employment.

Having the actual power to enforce your biases is one way to define patriarchy, or racism, but patriarchy for most women is first experienced in the home.

I agree with part of this. Black men are in a position to oppress bw, just as bw are in a position to oppress bm. Unfortunately, only one party is allowed to talk about their plight whole the other is often silenced.

 

[The Dark King]

BM within the Black community definitely have the ability to subordinate BW, just as Asian men do to Asian women, Hispanic men to Hispanic women, etc.

I think it's more about a man's general attitude towards women as a whole, not whether he literally has the power to keep her in a secondary position.

It would sort of be like a poor White person telling me they can't be racist specifically towards me because they don't have the power or authority to affect my life or employment.

Having the actual power to enforce your biases is one way to define patriarchy, or racism, but patriarchy for most women is first experienced in the home.

Yeah I'm gonna call horseshit because then we are basically coming down to name calling or teasing and honestly that stuff is inconsequential in comparison actually being able to effect mobility and resources. A poor white man still has the coercive apparatus called the police that can end my shit instantly without consequence. As long as legal systems are based on majority rule whiteness carries far more power than maleness. If this were a patriarchy you would have more social power than a white or Asian woman but you don't unless you're one of the exceptional negroes and even then its still iffy.
Women don't first feel patriarchy in the home that's called parenting anyone who is the adult man or woman is in charge and the women you are talking about usually feel that from a white male parent. Black people don't have the same experience as a whole.

 

[The Dark King]

I agree with part of this. Black men are in a position to oppress bw, just as bw are in a position to oppress bm. Unfortunately, only one party is allowed to talk about their plight whole the other is often silenced.

How can black men oppress women? They have more education are more likely to be employed more likely to own a home less likely to have a prison record which limits their ability to get a job. By which metric can we oppress anyone. Can we harm people physically ? Yes. Can we damage property? Yes. But we can limit mobility and freedom not as a collective. Maybe there are certain pockets like maybe hip hop or acting 30 years ago but overall it doesn't exist here.
Notice how infrequent the metoo movement has effected black men? We are not in those positions to cause it.

 

[meowkittenmeow]

How can black men oppress women? They have more education are more likely to be employed more likely to own a home less likely to have a prison record which limits their ability to get a job. By which metric can we oppress anyone. Can we harm people physically ? Yes. Can we damage property? Yes. But we can limit mobility and freedom not as a collective. Maybe there are certain pockets like maybe hip hop or acting 30 years ago but overall it doesn't exist here.
Notice how infrequent the metoo movement has effected black men? We are not in those positions to cause it.

I see what you mean. I should have clarified. Black men can "conditionally oppress", as in the sense of physical harm, violence, etc. But, we don't institutionally oppress as we don'tbhave the institutional male privilege to do so. Black women do have institutional power over the black community as it is a matriarchy. So, I agree with both of you, but in a different way. I apologize for not clarifying as I have repeated these things so often that I assumed everyone kind of knew what I meant.

But, I should maintain specifics, you are right.

 

[darkcurry]

Yeah I'm gonna call horseshit because then we are basically coming down to name calling or teasing and honestly that stuff is inconsequential in comparison actually being able to effect mobility and resources. A poor white man still has the coercive apparatus called the police that can end my shit instantly without consequence. As long as legal systems are based on majority rule whiteness carries far more power than maleness. If this were a patriarchy you would have more social power than a white or Asian woman but you don't unless you're one of the exceptional negroes and even then its still iffy.
Women don't first feel patriarchy in the home that's called parenting anyone who is the adult man or woman is in charge and the women you are talking about usually feel that from a white male parent. Black people don't have the same experience as a whole.

This goes back to those that like to argue about how the enslavement of africans weren't racist because there were Irish slaves. There are people out here that believe that since there are poor white people too that racism can't exist or as a recent poll I seen I think on the news that white people experience racism more than anybody else. Even there were Irish slaves they were treated better than african slaves because they weren't black, even though there are poor white people the rich white supremacist see that as at least you're not poor and of color. One of the ways racism and white supremacy started before it became a term was when the planters would tell the WHITE servants that they were better and will be treated better than the african slaves so they would'nt get another rebellion with the servants and the slaves joining forces against them. Poor whites are a sacrifice to protect white supremacy within the power structure of this country and other countries that have adopted this divide and conquer tactic. But they will always have white supremacy on their side if it comes down to it with their poor black counterparts.

 

[JamalSpunky]

Not remotely true. I may not use the term white feminist but I a regularly say I support women not feminism because that bs is racist at its core. I don't hate white women in the slightest I just won't support organizations that pretend to support everyone but covertly support white supremacy the only difference is they want white women in power instead of men.

Friend, my post was in reference to black women who coined the term white feminism as far as I know and definitely resort to using this term every other hour these days. This isn't to say there isn't any truth behind some of the grievances black women have but as always they tend to play victim too much and as a result they guilt white people and white women in particular to acknowledging any slight, even imagined ones, that black women have to endure. The stupid white women who bend too far to appease black women on this front don't realize that so many black women have a deep seated hatred towards them anyway and wouldn't be happy with anything white chicks do. So...white chicks need to stop going overboard in the sucking up.

 

[redlolly]

No, you aren't understanding. I take the actual definition of feminism (dictionary version), then compare that to how feminists actually work in practice.

You seem to have your own definition regardless of the dictionary which is fine. I wish you the best with that and I am glad you found happiness in it.

But, please understand that I am interested in the dictionary definition as well as the good and bad that it does. I am not interested in personal/individual definitions that aren't found in the dictionary. I hope this clarifies.

haha no, i understand perfectly.
A dictionary will give you the linguistic meaning and derivation of a word.
Understanding and appreciation of a concept (feminism, for example lol) goes way beyond a few lines in a reference book.
If you rely on dictionary definitions for everything, your understanding is hardly likely to be all-encompassing on any topic.
It's really no wonder you find yourself at odds with those for whom these things are more than a few words on a page.

 

[The Dark King]

Friend, my post was in reference to black women who coined the term white feminism as far as I know and definitely resort to using this term every other hour these days. This isn't to say there isn't any truth behind some of the grievances black women have but as always they tend to play victim too much and as a result they guilt white people and white women in particular to acknowledging any slight, even imagined ones, that black women have to endure. The stupid white women who bend too far to appease black women on this front don't realize that so many black women have a deep seated hatred towards them anyway and wouldn't be happy with anything white chicks do. So...white chicks need to stop going overboard in the sucking up.

My bad I misunderstood

 

[meowkittenmeow]

haha no, i understand perfectly.
A dictionary will give you the linguistic meaning and derivation of a word.
Understanding and appreciation of a concept (feminism, for example lol) goes way beyond a few lines in a reference book.
If you rely on dictionary definitions for everything, your understanding is hardly likely to be all-encompassing on any topic.
It's really no wonder you find yourself at odds with those for whom these things are more than a few words on a page.

Listen, although the rest of the world sees feminism as a movement and ideology, you said you do not. I get that you have some holistic view of what it is. That's fine. And it isnyour business.

I have tried to explain, but I suppose I am going to have to be blunt. I have no interest in your views or opinions on an ideology and movement that silences and erases the plight of male victims (IE. Feminism).

I support your right to believe in whatever you want and whatever way you want. But, I have no interest in listening to you preach "holistic feminism", to me. Please and thank you and I wish you the best with what you believe in.

Also, for the record, I said I use what feminism does good and bad as well ad the actual definition. So, please stop already.

 

[The Dark King]

Listen, although the rest of the world sees feminism as a movement and ideology, you said you do not. I get that you have some holistic view of what it is. That's fine. And it isnyour business.

I have tried to explain, but I suppose I am going to have to be blunt. I have no interest in your views or opinions on an ideology and movement that silences and erases the plight of male victims (IE. Feminism).

I support your right to believe in whatever you want and whatever way you want. But, I have no interest in listening to you preach "holistic feminism", to me. Please and thank you and I wish you the best with what you believe in.

Also, for the record, I said I use what feminism does good and bad as well ad the actual definition. So, please stop already.

She meant well and see her pov. It makes sense to make differientations when you personally feel differently but I also implore to recognize there are plenty of alt right and neo Nazis who just want to be separate and take care of "their people" (whoever that is) but the ideology and actions of the larger group wash away any chance of it being seen as just a separatist movement. Don't get me wrong I know that feminist and neo Nazis aren't in the same ball park but overall attitude of white supremacy and exclusion are there

 

[meowkittenmeow]

She meant well and see her pov. It makes sense to make differientations when you personally feel differently but I also implore to recognize there are plenty of alt right and neo Nazis who just want to be separate and take care of "their people" (whoever that is) but the ideology and actions of the larger group wash away any chance of it being seen as just a separatist movement. Don't get me wrong I know that feminist and neo Nazis aren't in the same ball park but overall attitude of white supremacy and exclusion are there

Oh, I more than understand that she has her own belief of what feminism is and isn't in spite of what the rest of the world thinks. As I said, I support her right to that, I just personally don't want to hear it. So, as many times as I nicely attempted to decline talking to her about her feminist beliefs, she wasn't getting the hint, so I decided to be blunt. I think she should be free to post any opinion she pleases, I would just prefer that she doesn't direct her views on feminism to me. That's all.

 

[andreboba]

There is no singular opinion of what 'feminism' means or how it's defined.
I know meowkittenmeow has a skewed view of feminism because of his own personal life experience, but I know dozens of 'feminists' personally who would view male victims of sexual assault by women as true VICTIMS and not collateral damage as a part of a greater feminist movement.

Personally I feel it's disingenuous to condemn the entire feminist movement because you didn't receive the empathy you feel you deserved from a few individuals, just like I believe it's wrong for TDK to tarnish 'feminism' as a worthwhile civil rights struggle because there are strains of feminism that embrace White supremacy.

Both of you are grossly generalizing your own personal experiences as representative of almost 90 years of the women's rights movement.

To assume Ema Watson is both unsympathetic to male victims of sexual assault by women, or believes in the ideology of White supremacy, simply because she dares to call herself a feminist, is way too narrow minded IMO.

Almost every woman I know in her private moments would classify herself as a feminist, and none of them fit the definition TDK and meowkittenmeow have talked about.

 

[darkcurry]

@andreboba @meowkittenmeow @The Dark King Some more proof of what their brand of feminism is REALLY about

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5239469/Carlson-hints-swimsuit-competition-Miss-America.html

They want to get rid of the bikini competition at Miss America,

but keep their outrageous and scandalous scholarship program

5:30

Why not just do away with the entire show, because it's still a popularity contest for women to be judged on. It's meaningless when you really think about it. And Trump owned it. lol.

This is about Power and Gretchen Carlson is an example of it. They want to tell even their own gender what they can and can not do. It's a woman's body and her choice, unless a woman in power tells her what she can and can not do with it!? This is the kind of feminism I feel Emma Watson is trying to distance herself from. Power and Equality are not the same thing.

 

[RicardoCooper]

When there is not a clear definition, there is bound to be problems.

If people are not in agreement with what the definition of what they are discussing/debating is, it makes it impossible to further the conversation.

Which is why I've largely stopped debating any point.

 

[meowkittenmeow]

There is no singular opinion of what 'feminism' means or how it's defined.
I know meowkittenmeow has a skewed view of feminism because of his own personal life experience, but I know dozens of 'feminists' personally who would view male victims of sexual assault by women as true VICTIMS and not collateral damage as a part of a greater feminist movement.

Personally I feel it's disingenuous to condemn the entire feminist movement because you didn't receive the empathy you feel you deserved from a few individuals, just like I believe it's wrong for TDK to tarnish 'feminism' as a worthwhile civil rights struggle because there are strains of feminism that embrace White supremacy.

Both of you are grossly generalizing your own personal experiences as representative of almost 90 years years of the women's rights movement.

To assume Ema Watson is both unsympathetic to male victims of sexual assault by women, or believes in the ideology of White supremacy, simply because she dares to call herself a feminist, is way too narrow minded IMO.

Almost every woman I know in her private moments would classify herself as a feminist, and none of them fit the definition TDK and meowkittenmeow have talked about.

I get that has been your personal experience. I am happy that it has been positive. But, your personal experiences doesn't negate our personal experiences.

You mention 90 years of feminism, as if you didn't tell me to leave their historical white supremacy out so as not to be a slave to history.

You said that you found it odd that BM are discussing what feminism is and isn't yet you do the same.

You expect us to just accept feminists opinion of feminism, yet when feminist opinions are shown to you, you write it off as "whiney left snowflake" stuff.

You say that feminists care about male victims when the feminist created duluth model removes male victims completely as well as female victims who suffer at the hands of women. And the wheel of abuse is used by a number of institutions so it creates a feminist system against men. But, we are somehow "skewed" if we point that out.


"Personally I feel it's disingenuous to condemn the entire feminist movement because you didn't receive the empathy you feel you deserved from a few individuals,"

Furthermore, in regards to "tarnishing a movement", feminism has tarnished itself with it's oppressive models. That being said, you are in no position to comment on my experiences as a rape survivor and my experiences aren't limited to "a few feminists". I can assure you it was many more than a few and their misandric oppression of male survivors is systemic and wide reaching. If it was a "few" that wouldn't be the case. So, I would suggest you focus on things you have experienced and not my experiences as if you have any in depth information about my experiences as a rape survivor dealing with feminists and feminism.

I'd also like to add that arguing that white feminism doesn't exist in a thread about a feminist discussing how white feminism exists is rather contradicting.

I am done discussing this with you because it's ridiculous at this point. Just do me a favor and stop mentioning me in your posts in this thread. I will gladly do the same for you.