I don't see the big deal about Adele.

jaisee said:
African culture was stripped from us a long time ago. Everything from African dress to religion to language to the arts was stripped and replaced. Black males and females in America have virtually NO connections or knowledge of our African roots and are more likely ashamed than proud of it. Black Americans carry European names, appreciate European arts, follow European religion... etc.,. etc.,. 'Black' American culture is more Euro influenced than African influenced. Hell, even our education is Euro biased. The fact that black youth walk out of a classroom thinking a white supremacist freed the slaves out of the goodness of his heart should speak volumes. As far as the arts go, in school we're exposed to Beethoven and da Vinci but not so much de Saint-Georges or.... uhm.... I don't know of any African artists.

So where does music come into play? I'd say when you remove someone from their cultural base, there is a huge void left for those cultural tenets to be replaced. MTV and BET did a pretty good job of filling that void. We dress in the styles that the rappers tell us to, we wear the jewelry that they tell us to wear, we drink the alcohol they tell us to drink. So yes, money has something to do with it... but if you really go digging you'll find that it's much deeper than that.
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Very well written. To be honest even in college when I studied Afro-American history it was always in the context of Euro-history. And that is understandable...to a point. In the greater more macro view of history we are all connected but when on takes a deeper more micro view we can see district differences in those similarities. On the s


Let me give you an example. China and the greater Asia vs the Japanese. On the surface these are very similar cultures, but if one were to take a deeper view one would find the Chinese and Japanese culture are very different. Different cultural norms, different language, grammar, totally different syntax even though the Japanese culture, and the greater Asian culture was influenced by China.

yes, African(black) American history and education is influenced by Europeans but we still have a very distinct culture, one that I am very proud of.
 
Ymra said:
yes, African(black) American history and education is influenced by Europeans but we still have a very distinct culture, one that I am very proud of.
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Out of curiosity, what would you say is our black American cultural identity in America?
 
jaisee said:
African culture was stripped from us a long time ago. Everything from African dress to religion to language to the arts was stripped and replaced. Black males and females in America have virtually NO connections or knowledge of our African roots and are more likely ashamed than proud of it. Black Americans carry European names, appreciate European arts, follow European religion... etc.,. etc.,. 'Black' American culture is more Euro influenced than African influenced. Hell, even our education is Euro biased. The fact that black youth walk out of a classroom thinking a white supremacist freed the slaves out of the goodness of his heart should speak volumes. As far as the arts go, in school we're exposed to Beethoven and da Vinci but not so much de Saint-Georges or.... uhm.... I don't know of any African artists.

So where does music come into play? I'd say when you remove someone from their cultural base, there is a huge void left for those cultural tenets to be replaced. MTV and BET did a pretty good job of filling that void. We dress in the styles that the rappers tell us to, we wear the jewelry that they tell us to wear, we drink the alcohol they tell us to drink. So yes, money has something to do with it... but if you really go digging you'll find that it's much deeper than that.
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There are a lot of great African American artists... (Romare Bearden, Augusta Savage, Jacob Lawrence, Charles White, and Henry Ossawa Tanner, just to name a few). Then there is Jean-Michel Basquiat, one of the most famous (and infamous) artists of all time. Romare Bearden and Jacob Lawrence are regularly taught in school as part of the curriculum - I taught a 2 day session on Jacob Lawrence to a group of high school students because I wanted to learn more about the Harlem Renaissance and wanted them to as well. It was a very successful lesson.

I see no reason why anyone would be ashamed of their African roots - especially when you were taken from them through no choice of your own. And people did not have blues, soul, old R&B, and jazz STRIPPED from them - they CHOSE to leave it behind. They willfully left behind a great legacy which came out of suffering, in favor of something cheap, transient, and lacking all depth of character. WHY???? That's what I want to know. It's certainly not because of anything the White Man has done. If I were black, I'd be an Afro-centric scholar, studying everything I could about all of the great people who had come before me. I am white, and I still try to learn as much as I can. It's gotten so bad, that I was amazed that nobody at work but me seemed to know who Josephine Baker was!!

They could have held onto it and taken PRIDE in the beautiful art/music that came out of their suffering, but they didn't. And look, NOW you CAN find out all you would ever care to know about great artists, composers, writers, inventors, etc. who were African American - it's all on the internet!! Yet people know less, and less, and less... it's nobody's fault but their own. I don't blame it on the kids, I blame it on the teachers and on the parents.
 
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saintaugusta said:
There are a lot of great African American artists... (Romare Bearden, Augusta Savage, Jacob Lawrence, Charles White, and Henry Ossawa Tanner, just to name a few). Then there is Jean-Michel Basquiat, one of the most famous (and infamous) artists of all time. Romare Bearden and Jacob Lawrence are regularly taught in school as part of the curriculum - I taught a 2 day session on Jacob Lawrence to a group of high school students because I wanted to learn more about the Harlem Renaissance and wanted them to as well. It was a very successful lesson.
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That's my point, I'm certain they exist. I don't know very many who would say they're regularly taught in school as part of the curriculum though. The whole point of black history month is to level the playing field.

I see no reason to be ashamed of your African roots - especially when you were taken from them through no choice of your own. And people did not have blues, soul, old R&B, and jazz STRIPPED from them - they CHOSE to leave it behind. They willfully left behind a great legacy which came out of suffering, in favor of something cheap, transient, and lacking all depth of character. WHY???? That's what I want to know. It's certainly not because of anything the White Man has done.
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You're missing the point. Blues, soul, old R&B and jazz are not traditional African music. That's the music of North America. If we are going to accept that as our cultural music then we also have to accept rap and everything else. WHY have people given up on music born out of suffering and taken to music that, though shallow says "I am successful"? How depressive / defeatist would we be if we still sang and played music born out of suffering?

They could have held onto it and taken PRIDE in the beautiful art/music that came out of their suffering, but they didn't. And look, NOW you CAN find out all you would ever care to know about great artists, composers, inventors, etc. who were African American - it's all on the internet!! Yet people know less, and less, and less... it's nobody's fault but their own. I don't blame it on the kids, I blame it on the teachers and on the parents.
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Sounds like you blame it on the kids, teachers and parents. The fact that it is available on the internet means it's accessible to kids.... the fact that they're not searching it means the blame goes to them. However, I agree... the black community needs to do a better job at educating the black community.


I'm going to make an old soul album, please advise as to how I get it marketed to the masses.
 
saintaugusta said:
There are a lot of great African American artists... (Romare Bearden, Augusta Savage, Jacob Lawrence, Charles White, and Henry Ossawa Tanner, just to name a few). Then there is Jean-Michel Basquiat, one of the most famous (and infamous) artists of all time. Romare Bearden and Jacob Lawrence are regularly taught in school as part of the curriculum - I taught a 2 day session on Jacob Lawrence to a group of high school students because I wanted to learn more about the Harlem Renaissance and wanted them to as well. It was a very successful lesson.

I see no reason why anyone would be ashamed of their African roots - especially when you were taken from them through no choice of your own. And people did not have blues, soul, old R&B, and jazz STRIPPED from them - they CHOSE to leave it behind. They willfully left behind a great legacy which came out of suffering, in favor of something cheap, transient, and lacking all depth of character. WHY???? That's what I want to know. It's certainly not because of anything the White Man has done. If I were black, I'd be an Afro-centric scholar, studying everything I could about all of the great people who had come before me. I am white, and I still try to learn as much as I can. It's gotten so bad, that I was amazed that nobody at work but me seemed to know who Josephine Baker was!!

They could have held onto it and taken PRIDE in the beautiful art/music that came out of their suffering, but they didn't. And look, NOW you CAN find out all you would ever care to know about great artists, composers, writers, inventors, etc. who were African American - it's all on the internet!! Yet people know less, and less, and less... it's nobody's fault but their own. I don't blame it on the kids, I blame it on the teachers and on the parents.
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So if i'm to understand you, black people left behind rock n roll? Little Richard would like a word with you.

I think you're simplifing too much the state of black music in america right now. When black music was at it's best, it was still fringe culture in some respects especially modern r&b and early hip-hop. When it became embraced by white america on the whole and went mainstream, the record companies found ways to mass market the product as cheaply as possible while still making a buck. Black people didn't make artist like Lil Jon and the Ying Yang twins popular, suburban white america did.

So please don't put this all on us. I can't believe i'm the only person saying this.
 
JamalSpunky said:
Don't want to get in too big a debate about this but 1) yeah, while the 90s were "okay" for white female singers, but their overall numbers are still nonetheless small in comparison to the overall history of the music genre and 2) over the course of said music history the white female singer to white male singer ratio is pathetic compared to the black female singer to the black male singer ratio. But it is not a big deal because hardly any of your examples treaded into what we refer to as black music.

As for stealing, dude, no need to try to give me a history lesson as if I'm unaware of the legacy of the American music industry. That stuff used to be my passion. And I wouldn't refer to it as stealing anyway, at least not since the early days of rock 'n roll. Black people make music to be enjoyed by the masses and most of the artists don't mind if non-black people like their songs and take up after them. That is a sign of respect when people from different cultures and races flock to the music of another group of people. Is it frustrating though when white America flocks more readily to a white person who specializes in soul or hip-hop music than they do to a black musician? Yes. But I don't blame the white artists themselves for that when that occurs because all they did was make music that they enjoy and admire. We gotta stop throwing away that whole "stealing" charge. Where's the theft? If a Chinese violinist composes new classical music that is clearly of European DNA is he/she stealing too? If an Indian band puts together an album of new delta blues songs is it stealing? Or are these people showing tribute? Ask yourself is there ANYTHING you do in life that was originated by Europeans. If so are you guilty of stealing?
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The 90's were "okay" for white female singers? Britney Spears in shocked.


Speaking of Britney, she began the trend i noticed of white pop singers who changed their cadence in singing to match black female vocalists who were popular at the time like Mariah Carey. Christina Aguilera, Pink, Jessica Simpson all followed as well. Before then, most white pop vocalists sounded like Madonna.

And there is a difference between tributes and straight up imitation. Was Vanilla Ice doing a tribute to black music or just capitalizing on a trend that was rising?
 
TreePixie said:
Well said. Even reggae is a mix of cultures/rhythms. Someone mentioned bluegrass a while back in this thread - that clearly has roots in Celtic rhythms and constructs (and was born where a lot of Scots-Irish folk lived in the Appalachia).

African culture was deliberately crushed in this country starting in the 17th century. A little was left in the Caribbean but mixed with Indian & European culture as well.

I don't see even the blues as coming out of African musical roots.
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Reggae isn't the only music form to come out of the Caribbean. You should try listening to some Soca and Calypso. Reggae main roots come from Africa btw, i have no idea what you're talking about it.
 
Esoterik Dreadz said:
The 90's were "okay" for white female singers? Britney Spears in shocked.


Speaking of Britney, she began the trend i noticed of white pop singers who changed their cadence in singing to match black female vocalists who were popular at the time like Mariah Carey. Christina Aguilera, Pink, Jessica Simpson all followed as well. Before then, most white pop vocalists sounded like Madonna.

And there is a difference between tributes and straight up imitation. Was Vanilla Ice doing a tribute to black music or just capitalizing on a trend that was rising?
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I disagree that it as Britney trying to match black music...this was simply the direction of POP music. And there is a big leap between Madonna and Brittney. By the time Brittney came on the same Madonna had changed her sound completely from the here 80s days.

And what's funny is the very same thing Vanilla Ice was dissed for doing, is not a main stay in hip hop music...biting whole entire lines and runs...
 
saintaugusta said:
LOL - Maroon 5 does not sing "black music" - it's poppy and mainsteam as can be, and Sting doesn't doesn't sing "black music either, although some of his music is/was inspired by reggae (the Police) and blues/gospel/jazz, etc. - he is inspired by music from all over the world - Middle Eastern (as in "Desert Rose") as well as his own native English folk music.

You don't get to claim ALL good music is "black music", even if a tiny bit of it was inspired by the original American black roots music.

Music is ART, which is ALWAYS inspired by other artists, and is never a completely original thought.
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Its good to see you knew where I was going with the mention of Maroon 5...as you have been able to tell..i generally only like when black ppl do soul music...with a few exceptions like tina marie & jon b.

The Maroon 5 five mention was to let white ppl know that yall produce good music...thats not tied to what
we call soul or r&b music....btw...george michaels fits this example too.
 
Memo: Almost no one in this thread knows anything meaningful about music from an historical or cultural standpoint.
 
TreePixie said:
Well, you always think that. I'm unworthy of notice, being ancient and all anyway.
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Ridiculous. I know you are being sarcastic, TreePixie, but you are not that old, just old enough that you know more than most people here, based on sheer life experience (not to mention you've lived through more musical phases and seen the transitions, not just heard about them).
 
jaisee said:
That's my point, I'm certain they exist. I don't know very many who would say they're regularly taught in school as part of the curriculum though. The whole point of black history month is to level the playing field.

Actually, these artists are and CAN BE taught as part of regular curriculum - I incorporated them with a section on Social Realism vs. Romanticism and included other European artists (eg. Courbet and Millet), but the main focus was on Jacob Lawrence. The only people who relegate black artists to Black History month alone are short-sighted, prejudiced idiots. It just depends on the teacher.
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You're missing the point. Blues, soul, old R&B and jazz are not traditional African music. That's the music of North America. If we are going to accept that as our cultural music then we also have to accept rap and everything else. WHY have people given up on music born out of suffering and taken to music that, though shallow says "I am successful"? How depressive / defeatist would we be if we still sang and played music born out of suffering?

Aspects of blues, soul, R&B, and jazz have roots in African music ...way back. Yes, it's the music of North America, but it's not relatable to everyone - depends on who you talk to. A Norwegian farmer in Minnesota may not have understood it, while he was staunchly singing Lutheran hymns without music...I don't see HOW you can't see blues, soul, etc. as part of your African American heritage - there was an evolution - they didn't just spring up out of nowhere. Rap music also has a LOT of base in African music, in my opinion - its very heart, the spoken word, the beat, and not all of it is bad... Yes it would be defeatist if everyone sang the blues all of the time, but look at jazz and funk - nothing defeatist about that, yet why is it being discarded today?
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Sounds like you blame it on the kids, teachers and parents. The fact that it is available on the internet means it's accessible to kids.... the fact that they're not searching it means the blame goes to them. However, I agree... the black community needs to do a better job at educating the black community.

No, I don't blame the kids - they only see as far as the end of their noses, without proper guidance. They don't know it's POSSIBLE to search for things if they don't think they exist. Teachers don't instill a hunger in kids, and parents certainly aren't - they don't want them to be curious. They want them to take their medicine and behave (meanwhile the poor kids don't get recess anymore and aren't getting nutritious meals)... And it's not just the BLACK community that needs to do a better job educating kids - every teacher needs to do a better job educating ALL kids about African-American history - it should be mandatory in college if you're going to be a teacher, that you have to take several black history courses IMHO.
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I'm going to make an old soul album, please advise as to how I get it marketed to the masses.
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Be a bonafide real musician. Have an interesting story. Study under some of the greats, or be almost completely self-taught. OR be classically trained from a prestigious school. Be pretty good-looking and shy, self-effacing, eccentric. Know someone. Play out A LOT in dive bars and develop a local following... Also do some shows in other cities when you can (by developing connections)... play on sets with people who are better known than yourself...Develop a good reputation as being reliable and hard-working... after that, I'm not sure. Just that pure old soul might not cut it anymore - you'd have to put some kind of youthful hook into it, something original, something personal, or it would come off as stale...
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Fuck me... I haven't mastered responding to the multiple quotes. Anyway, above, jaisee, are my responses to you, only they are in "quotes". :oops:
 
saintaugusta said:
Ridiculous. I know you are being sarcastic, TreePixie, but you are not that old, just old enough that you know more than most people here, based on sheer life experience (not to mention you've lived through more musical phases and seen the transitions, not just heard about them).
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CO-SIGN!!!!!!

DAMNIT..
 
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