Ashley Judd criticizes hip hop music/culture

[The Dark King]

They were not kids. They were around my age. And no, Fan, I do not live in a shitty ghetto. Don't try to be condenscending with me in this discussion. I have gone into stores like Radio Shack where this type of music was playing. You ignorantly think that a store has to be embedded in the ghetto to play music with the N word. I'm not surprised that you don't know any better because of some of your posts I've read on another thread concerning an issue going on right up under your nose in your country Jamaica.


Your tendency to misread or misquote me annoys me because this is one of your tactics. Below is what I said.





It's very evident to me that it did indeed have some effect on you and that is not your parents fault. We can go on and on about this and that is not my intention. The fact is something needs to be done and I noted that you didn't even discuss any of the solutions that I offered. You simply got upset about your gender being mention for the lack of their part in offering solutions for this serious situation...typical.



To be honest, I see the decadence and so do many people. But like you, they don't give a damn. Then when someone is stupid enough to show some concern, they get shot down. Rap is influencing many of the youth...not all. For you to say it isn't, is not being honest.

Again you're such liar but what else is new. You called it jerk off material and I said jerk off music same shit in my opinion special needs.
Secondly if people want to debate violence and the poor treatment of women in media period I'm all for it but when people zero on rap it screams cowardice and I definitely take offense because they're targeting entertainment mostly occupied by bm. It's painfully obvious to me and I don't see how it isn't to most. If she or anybody wants to be a real crusader against whats the biggest contributor to poor treatment of women attack the fashion industry. Show me one statistic where violence against women has gone up as a by product of rap music. All rap does is bring attention to bullshit that's already going on. You think violence in the hood happened because rap started? Motherfuckers started really killing during the crack era way before even one rapper spoke about violence on a track.
If you want to blame drugs fine or a poverty system designed to keep blacks poor then fine but blaming one of the few ways these guys can make money and get their families out of shitty situations is just plain wrong and ALL of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I'm done.

 

[Iggy]

Agreed. While rap is mostly purchased by white boys, they are entertained by it and do not associate themselves with it on a personal level. However, the many of the youth in the black community tend to internalize this shit.

Exactly what I was trying to say thanks lol!

The whole hip hop culture NOWADAYS fuckin sucks (and btw I am not some old man, I am in my late 20s and cant stand 90% of it)

 

[The Dark King]

Exactly what I was trying to say thanks lol!

The whole hip hop culture NOWADAYS fuckin sucks (and btw I am not some old man, I am in my late 20s and cant stand 90% of it)

Neither can I but kids being assholes has always been a issue, the problem now is no guidance, no parenting.
You're a fairly educated and successful young dude who grew up in the same era of rap I did. It didn't stop you from going to school and getting a job right?
Why?
Because I'm sure your parents made sure you didn't turn into an asshole.

 

[orejon4]

Hip-Hop

I love early hip-hop (up until the mid-1990s or so) as well as newer artists who keep that spirit alive. I also think 80%-90% of what is released now under that genre is utter garbage. However, I do not think that it is responsible for the chaos in poor communities of color. The children are vulnerable to anything because of the poverty, ignorance and violence they are surrounded by. Rap does not, in my opinion, hold any special sway over the youth. They are clinging to anything they can grasp because they lack the necessary support structures for success, bonding and self-esteem. If it wasn't hip-hop, it would be country music, or video games or whatever whipping boy du jour they conjure up. They are behaving in violent and ignorant ways because that is in fact what their environment is. Hip hop didn't make this, poverty, ignorance and violence did. And what would a person from a
Violent, ignorant, poverty-stricken background reflect in their music? Violence, ignorance and poverty.

The challenge or question is not whether or not they are influenced, but why are they so impressionable?

 

[The Dark King]

I love early hip-hop (up until the mid-1990s or so) as well as newer artists who keep that spirit alive. I also think 80%-90% of what is released now under that genre is utter garbage. However, I do not think that it is responsible for the chaos in poor communities of color. The children are vulnerable to anything because of the poverty, ignorance and violence they are surrounded by. Rap does not, in my opinion, hold any special sway over the youth. They are clinging to anything they can grasp because they lack the necessary support structures for success, bonding and self-esteem. If it wasn't hip-hop, it would be country music, or video games or whatever whipping boy du jour they conjure up. They are behaving in violent and ignorant ways because that is in fact what their environment is. Hip hop didn't make this, poverty, ignorance and violence did. And what would a person from a
Violent, ignorant, poverty-stricken background reflect in their music? Violence, ignorance and poverty.

The challenge or question is not whether or not they are influenced, but why are they so impressionable?

They're impressionable because of lack of parenting period. It all starts there and everything else follows.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Is clap-trap lame as an art form? Yes.
Is it responsible for the decline of western civilization? No (in many ways it's rotting on its own).
I have to say, I don't see why it's so hard to just turn it off. When my son and I are together, he gets only jazz, dub/roots, salsa, flamenco and kids' show tunes. Period. No hip-hop, no rock. No vulgarity. Nothing with a message that requires insight and maturity (that my 9-year old does not yet possess) to differentiate. I don't want the music industry or Hollywood raising my son. This stuff can only hold sway over people's minds if we allow it to. I chalk it up to slack parenting.

Where does slackness come from? Poverty and ignorance, not music. People wallow in the relative degradation of the music because they are relatively degraded, not the other way around.

So I still think Ms. Judd is off-base. She is attributing causality to the effects themselves.

I love early hip-hop (up until the mid-1990s or so) as well as newer artists who keep that spirit alive. I also think 80%-90% of what is released now under that genre is utter garbage. However, I do not think that it is responsible for the chaos in poor communities of color. The children are vulnerable to anything because of the poverty, ignorance and violence they are surrounded by. Rap does not, in my opinion, hold any special sway over the youth. They are clinging to anything they can grasp because they lack the necessary support structures for success, bonding and self-esteem. If it wasn't hip-hop, it would be country music, or video games or whatever whipping boy du jour they conjure up. They are behaving in violent and ignorant ways because that is in fact what their environment is. Hip hop didn't make this, poverty, ignorance and violence did. And what would a person from a
Violent, ignorant, poverty-stricken background reflect in their music? Violence, ignorance and poverty.The challenge or question is not whether or not they are influenced, but why are they so impressionable?

Well said. Being that I was a kid in the 70's & a teenager in the 80's I saw first hand how things were prior to and after the explosion of crack and the increase of gang culture and how it brought about a lot of the current state of low income areas. Indeed the environment created the more darker rap, not the other way around. Good parenting and positive role models around for the young are the key to fighting back against the negativity in general and especially how it has taken hold in low income communities. Things were by no means perfect before the rise of crack and gangs, but there were parents and role models around to prevent or negate a lot of the negative that was around. There was a sense of both pride & community back when in a lot of low income areas that is currently lacking today. Find a way to rebuild that and there would be hope and drive for most of the people trapped in low income situations to want to do things the proper way and make life better for themselves.

 

[OpenHeart]

Again you're such liar but what else is new.

Oh hell no...shit. No he didn't. Well damn!

You called it jerk off material and I said jerk off music same shit in my opinion special needs.

Yes, they have special needs...rehab.

Secondly if people want to debate violence and the poor treatment of women in media period I'm all for it but when people zero on rap it screams cowardice and I definitely take offense because they're targeting entertainment mostly occupied by bm.

You are taking this too personally Fan. You should be more concerned about how this is affecting many of the children rather than worrying about how it is making black men look.

It's painfully obvious to me and I don't see how it isn't to most. If she or anybody wants to be a real crusader against whats the biggest contributor to poor treatment of women attack the fashion industry.

Personally, I am more concerned about the children than I am the effect i may or may not have on women, because women have a voice. If they want change, they know how to get it if they want it. But children are not able to control what adults do (parents and vile rappers) nor do they have a voice in the matter as far as the law is concerned. I speak for them and always will, though I have none of my own yet. Somebody needs to give a damn and I will continue to do so...without remorse or regret in the face of ignorance and callousness. It doesn't matter if they are being exposed to porn, suicidal rock, vile rap, abusive parents, sexual abuse, rape...I will speak out about it.

Show me one statistic where violence against women has gone up as a by product of rap music. All rap does is bring attention to bullshit that's already going on. You think violence in the hood happened because rap started? Motherfuckers started really killing during the crack era way before even one rapper spoke about violence on a track.

Let me ask you a question Fan...after having been made aware of something for the past 20 some years that we were already (the public) aware of, do we still need to be made aware of it or do you think it's time we begin hearing empowering lyrics that bring and encourage positive change rather than wallow in the mud of immorality seeped in money, bling and shit? Aren't you tired of the same ole shit day after day?

If you want to blame drugs fine or a poverty system designed to keep blacks poor then fine but blaming one of the few ways these guys can make money and get their families out of shitty situations is just plain wrong and ALL of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I'm done.

Fan...let's not talk to each other any more in this thread. Just take the question I asked you above as a rhetorical one. Just think about it if you are able. I'm sorry but I have little patience for this line of thought. You said you grew up on this shit and that's obviously what you have for brains at this point. Why talk any further?

 

[OpenHeart]

Exactly what I was trying to say thanks lol!

The whole hip hop culture NOWADAYS fuckin sucks (and btw I am not some old man, I am in my late 20s and cant stand 90% of it)

I feel you. I'm early twenties. I think it's good that we see the shit of this situation rather than having to grown older and then look back and say OMG...what happened. But on a lighter note, there is a growing number of rap artist who rap because they really love the art. The art is beautiful...it is simply being abused by some to the hurt of children. But as I said in my first post, I listen to rap, but I am selective. For example...

[HDYT]09MEJNTHjRw[/HDYT]


[HDYT]n9JHzJ72-y8[/HDYT]​

 

[Evie]

Well, I'm a huge music fan, and I have noticed that in the '80s, when rock music was outrageously sexist, hip-hop was actually more anti-racist, anti-sexist. There were 'consciousness-raising' groups like Public Enemy, and a lot of strong women rappers like Neneh Cherry, Monie Love, Queen Latifah and Salt N Pepa. But then, something revolutionary happened in the music industry. It was around about the time that 'punk broke' in the US, and bands like Nirvana, Sonic Youth, L7, Babes In Toyland, and Hole became popular. There was also the 'riot grrl' movement, which was all about encouraging women to actively participate in music, and become musicians, with an anti-sexist, feminist, consciousness-raising message. I remember that since Nirvana were friends with bands like Hole and Bikini Kill (probably the most prominent 'riot grrl' band), they helped spread the word about how they wanted to destroy 'cock rock' bands like Motley Crue, Guns N Roses, etc that were outrageously sexist in the '80s. And they did a pretty good job of it! Here's a link to some information about how bands like Bikini Kill changed rock music. It's called 'Ladies, Women, Girls And Rock N Roll,' by Steve Scher.

http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=19500

Also, a more recent article about the lasting legacy of the riot grrl movement:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/mar/25/joan-jett-kathleen-hanna-angry-women

The English press like NME and Melody Maker would support the riot grrrl bands, and 'alternative rock' bands, featuring women musicians. Aside from those already mentioned, these included Huggy Bear, The Pixies, The Breeders, Throwing Muses, Blake Babies, Belly, and artists like Juliana Hatfield. It was truly a revolution. Now, you can see the legacy in bands like Yeah Yeah Yeah's, The Gossip and Paramore.

Ironically, at the same time this was happening, it was hip-hop that became outrageously sexist, to the point of being farcical...Eg, 2 Live Crew and Snoop Dogg's first album. It's now still seen as being a bit comical, because it has such archaic, sexist messages - a bit like the musical equivalent of 'dirty old men' like Benny Hill! But, I think there is still hope for an 'alternative hip-hop' to happen. Eg, Kelis, with her song 'Caught Out There' was a hit, and was played a lot on 'alternative' stations. You just need a lot of female artists to gate-crash the 'boys club' in a similar way to what happened to rock in the late '80s, early '90s. Whenever there is equal participation for women, in whatever industry, there is more hope for equality and respect for women, and less room for sexism and misogyny.

 

[orejon4]

Well said. Being that I was a kid in the 70's & a teenager in the 80's I saw first hand how things were prior to and after the explosion of crack and the increase of gang culture and how it brought about a lot of the current state of low income areas. Indeed the environment created the more darker rap, not the other way around. Good parenting and positive role models around for the young are the key to fighting back against the negativity in general and especially how it has taken hold in low income communities. Things were by no means perfect before the rise of crack and gangs, but there were parents and role models around to prevent or negate a lot of the negative that was around. There was a sense of both pride & community back when in a lot of low income areas that is currently lacking today. Find a way to rebuild that and there would be hope and drive for most of the people trapped in low income situations to want to do things the proper way and make life better for themselves.

Well said, EyeOfRa. You and I are probably the same age, because I remember exactly what you wrote about. I was in that last group of kids who could still get a spanking by the old folks on the block who would then call your mother so you could get it again when you got home. No one glamorized criminals and hell, my mother didn't even allow baseball caps on in the house, so you know there weren't any sagging pants! When hip hop first came out, no one cared because it was harmless dancing music. The drug game and the crews needed to staff it brought the disrespect, violence and misogyny, because that's what their world was about.

 

[The Dark King]

Well, I'm a huge music fan, and I have noticed that in the '80s, when rock music was outrageously sexist, hip-hop was actually more anti-racist, anti-sexist. There were 'consciousness-raising' groups like Public Enemy, and a lot of strong women rappers like Neneh Cherry, Monie Love, Queen Latifah and Salt N Pepa. But then, something revolutionary happened in the music industry. It was around about the time that 'punk broke' in the US, and bands like Nirvana, Sonic Youth, L7, Babes In Toyland, and Hole became popular. There was also the 'riot grrl' movement, which was all about encouraging women to actively participate in music, and become musicians, with an anti-sexist, feminist, consciousness-raising message. I remember that since Nirvana were friends with bands like Hole and Bikini Kill (probably the most prominent 'riot grrl' band), they helped spread the word about how they wanted to destroy 'cock rock' bands like Motley Crue, Guns N Roses, etc that were outrageously sexist in the '80s. And they did a pretty good job of it! Here's a link to some information about how bands like Bikini Kill changed rock music. It's called 'Ladies, Women, Girls And Rock N Roll,' by Steve Scher.

http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=19500

Also, a more recent article about the lasting legacy of the riot grrl movement:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/mar/25/joan-jett-kathleen-hanna-angry-women

The English press like NME and Melody Maker would support the riot grrrl bands, and 'alternative rock' bands, featuring women musicians. Aside from those already mentioned, these included Huggy Bear, The Pixies, The Breeders, Throwing Muses, Blake Babies, Belly, and artists like Juliana Hatfield. It was truly a revolution. Now, you can see the legacy in bands like Yeah Yeah Yeah's, The Gossip and Paramore.

Ironically, at the same time this was happening, it was hip-hop that became outrageously sexist, to the point of being farcical...Eg, 2 Live Crew and Snoop Dogg's first album. It's now still seen as being a bit comical, because it has such archaic, sexist messages - a bit like the musical equivalent of 'dirty old men' like Benny Hill! But, I think there is still hope for an 'alternative hip-hop' to happen. Eg, Kelis, with her song 'Caught Out There' was a hit, and was played a lot on 'alternative' stations. You just need a lot of female artists to gate-crash the 'boys club' in a similar way to what happened to rock in the late '80s, early '90s. Whenever there is equal participation for women, in whatever industry, there is more hope for equality and respect for women, and less room for sexism and misogyny.

Interest post. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Well said, EyeOfRa. You and I are probably the same age, because I remember exactly what you wrote about. I was in that last group of kids who could still get a spanking by the old folks on the block who would then call your mother so you could get it again when you got home. No one glamorized criminals and hell, my mother didn't even allow baseball caps on in the house, so you know there weren't any sagging pants! When hip hop first came out, no one cared because it was harmless dancing music. The drug game and the crews needed to staff it brought the disrespect, violence and misogyny, because that's what their world was about.

True That. Legacy of the Reagan Era : The Culture of Drugs & Gang life hit the low income areas and the Culture of Greed, Apathy & Selfishness became more accepted by the wealthy and trickled down to the middle class. End result : Welcome to America 2011.

 

[The Dark King]

True That. Legacy of the Reagan Era : The Culture of Drugs & Gang life hit the low income areas and the Culture of Greed, Apathy & Selfishness became more accepted by the wealthy and trickled down to the middle class. End result : Welcome to America 2011.

Damn that's real. Good post.

 

[orejon4]

True That. Legacy of the Reagan Era : The Culture of Drugs & Gang life hit the low income areas and the Culture of Greed, Apathy & Selfishness became more accepted by the wealthy and trickled down to the middle class. End result : Welcome to America 2011.

Truth.

 

[Evie]

Interest post. Welcome to the forum.

Thank you. I hope I've contributed something useful to the debate! I remember how things changed in the music industry from the '80s to the early '90s, because I'm 37, and when I was 19, in 1993, I was actually so inspired by all of these women in music, my friends and I learned how to play instruments and formed bands at this music school called Rock N Roll High School. I remember a year later, a girl named Bree Leslie and her friends formed a band called Sourpuss, and they went on to become really popular here - everyone was saying they would be the next Silverchair! They were really influenced by Hole - people were always compairing Bree to Courtney Love. Anyway, she ended up meeting Tim Armstrong from Rancid at the Summersault festival and ran away to get married to him in the US! Haha, I was a bit sad, because I was major fan of band. But I just discovered on the internet that she's been very busy - she changed her name to Brody Dalle, formed The Distillers, and now her band is called Spinerette. She split up with Tim, but now she's married to Josh Homme of Queens of the Stone Age! Here's an article about her:

http://punkmusic.about.com/od/spinnerette/a/brodydalle.htm

Haha...so there's a little bit of inside music industry information for you!

But yeah, I can probably see why Ashley Judd criticises hip-hop today - it's certainly a different beast to how it used to be in the '80s, when it was more inclusive of female artists and consciousness-raising messages. I compared it a bit to like Benny Hill, when actually comedian Sacha Baron Cohen's Ali G character was probably more like a parody of hip-hop artists after the early '90s. He used to introduce his show with a bevy of big-arsed dancers, dancing to 2 Live Crew! It was hilarious! I suppose that's hip-hop's become - it's not really taken seriously as it was in the '80s. Here's an article about Ali G:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...absurd-rules-US-judge-in-defamation-case.html

 

[SmoothDaddy101]

Well said. Being that I was a kid in the 70's & a teenager in the 80's I saw first hand how things were prior to and after the explosion of crack and the increase of gang culture and how it brought about a lot of the current state of low income areas. Indeed the environment created the more darker rap, not the other way around. Good parenting and positive role models around for the young are the key to fighting back against the negativity in general and especially how it has taken hold in low income communities. Things were by no means perfect before the rise of crack and gangs, but there were parents and role models around to prevent or negate a lot of the negative that was around. There was a sense of both pride & community back when in a lot of low income areas that is currently lacking today. Find a way to rebuild that and there would be hope and drive for most of the people trapped in low income situations to want to do things the proper way and make life better for themselves.

Well said, EyeOfRa. You and I are probably the same age, because I remember exactly what you wrote about. I was in that last group of kids who could still get a spanking by the old folks on the block who would then call your mother so you could get it again when you got home. No one glamorized criminals and hell, my mother didn't even allow baseball caps on in the house, so you know there weren't any sagging pants! When hip hop first came out, no one cared because it was harmless dancing music. The drug game and the crews needed to staff it brought the disrespect, violence and misogyny, because that's what their world was about.

Words of wisdom from both of you. Sadly, I'm part of the dumbass generation (just a few years shy of the crack baby explosion) that glamorized stupidity. I'm not going into a rant, but I do wanna give you your props. The community is pretty much extinct.

 

[The Dark King]

Thank you. I hope I've contributed something useful to the debate! I remember how things changed in the music industry from the '80s to the early '90s, because I'm 37, and when I was 19, in 1993, I was actually so inspired by all of these women in music, my friends and I learned how to play instruments and formed bands at this music school called Rock N Roll High School. I remember a year later, a girl named Bree Leslie and her friends formed a band called Sourpuss, and they went on to become really popular here - everyone was saying they would be the next Silverchair! They were really influenced by Hole - people were always compairing Bree to Courtney Love. Anyway, she ended up meeting Tim Armstrong from Rancid at the Summersault festival and ran away to get married to him in the US! Haha, I was a bit sad, because I was major fan of band. But I just discovered on the internet that she's been very busy - she changed her name to Brody Dalle, formed The Distillers, and now her band is called Spinerette. She split up with Tim, but now she's married to Josh Homme of Queens of the Stone Age! Here's an article about her:

http://punkmusic.about.com/od/spinnerette/a/brodydalle.htm

Haha...so there's a little bit of inside music industry information for you!

But yeah, I can probably see why Ashley Judd criticises hip-hop today - it's certainly a different beast to how it used to be in the '80s, when it was more inclusive of female artists and consciousness-raising messages. I compared it a bit to like Benny Hill, when actually comedian Sacha Baron Cohen's Ali G character was probably more like a parody of hip-hop artists after the early '90s. He used to introduce his show with a bevy of big-arsed dancers, dancing to 2 Live Crew! It was hilarious! I suppose that's hip-hop's become - it's not really taken seriously as it was in the '80s. Here's an article about Ali G:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...absurd-rules-US-judge-in-defamation-case.html

You know what's interesting is that women rappers aren't nearly supported enough by other women. At least chick rock has a strong female following. It makes you think doesn't it?

 

[orejon4]

Words of wisdom from both of you. Sadly, I'm part of the dumbass generation (just a few years shy of the crack baby explosion) that glamorized stupidity. I'm not going into a rant, but I do wanna give you your props. The community is pretty much extinct.

Sadly, this appears to be the case. But the younger generation has some excellent emcees as well. Hip hop, while down, is not completely out just yet.

 

[SmoothDaddy101]

Sadly, this appears to be the case. But the younger generation has some excellent emcees as well. Hip hop, while down, is not completely out just yet.

I was talking...well, never mind. I know there's plenty of good indie stuff out there. Its just the corporate studio execs who push for the modern day minstrel shit.

 

[orejon4]

I was talking...well, never mind. I know there's plenty of good indie stuff out there. Its just the corporate studio execs who push for the modern day minstrel shit.

Oh, I'm with you 100%. All worthwhile art forms go through periods of retrenchment. Quality art is not the music industry's strong suit, for sure. The push the minstrel show on the consumer like it was crack. Time to head underground and ride the storm out. I wonder if there will ever be a golden era again like the 1986-1994 period. It seems like a milestone was dropping every month back then. A not a "Lollipop" in sight.