Living in Stuttgart, Germany: My experiences (Pt. 1)

funlove said:
could be misunderstanding and misconception. Wonder how two groups who look similar could just despise each other.
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Getting along goes much deeper than looking similar. You can look similar and have cultural differences.

It would be as naive as saying all blondes get along. Or all Swedes love each other.

There are many reasons for disagreement.
 
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JordanC said:
Getting along goes much deeper than looking similar. You can look similar and have cultural differences.

It would be as naive as saying all blondes get along. Or all Swedes love each other.

There are many reasons for disagreement.
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True in some sense, but when you are in foreign and unfamiliar territory you tend to be drawn to those that are similar to you. For some it could be race, religion, nationality etc. While some of the people who on face value seem similar to you may be completely different and in due time you will be looking to getting rid of them.

If for example JordanC were to go to kenya for a job assignment in a American company which is mostly ran by the locals. The company has about other 100 white people out of maybe 5000 employees. The likely hood of you becoming initially friends with the other white people is higher than with another group of people. Of course in time your best friends may end being locals but this will be based more on personality. I think generally humans want to belong, and in this scenario the easiest way to belong is along the line of race.

The OP stated that he at least expected to get a positive reception from the African, but they dissed him. So according to him the reception he got was not based on personality but other unknown reasons.
 
marcolorenzo said:
(continued from previous post)

I connected with a cat from New York during my first year. Funny in that we were in an Italian restaurant in Germany, two black guys and both of our girls were Greek. The two of us were trying to our best to not stare at each other too much but eventually we injected extra bass in our voice and said “what’s up,” we vibed with each other, exchanged info and we’ve been real cool ever since, hit a few spots with some other dudes. He was here because he used to play semi-pro basketball for a German team and ended up staying here permanently. Plus, he had an older brother who had been here for almost twenty years in the military. So for him, he was visiting his brother in Germany as a teenager and was exposed to that culture early on. He speaks German almost fluently now.

But the reason I bring him up is because contrasting with me, he LOVES Germany. For one thing he had his older brother to kind of help him adapt when he was younger because as he admits there was many a day he was about to kill some of these Germans for the typical rude shit they pull and he just wasn’t used to it.

As he tells it, Germany was so different from the street life he had been living in Brooklyn so suddenly not having to deal with the shit that goes on in that world and having buddies shot up and that type of thing, etc, etc,- Europe was cool. So for him, here is a black dude from New York playing ball overseas, hot German girls and other international girls throwing the P at him from various directions, it was safe, no drama, living in a nice apartment, going to school (he’s now working on his Masters), so for him…hell, Germany is fuckin paradise! And I understand that. So, it really depends on the individual’s situation.

For me, I had no one except my girl and so much of what I was going through she was not able to help me through it. I’m not in the military with a built in group of comrades, I didn’t have any family or friends, couldn’t speak the language. It was rough to say the least. But that was me. Perhaps someone else could be faced with the same set of circumstances and embrace it much better than I did.

During my first months living here there was one ugly incident where a group of young guys drove off from a store parking lot making monkey gestures at me and it just kinda stopped me in my tracks. I was pissed but frozen. I never, never experienced anything like that before. I admit it shook me in the sense that it fed into the frustration and anger I was already going through. At that time, I really hated Germany or I should specify, Stuttgart - I remember wishing their car would magically stall so I could snatch dude up and deal with him. When I think about it, I’m glad that scenario didn’t play out because it would have just made things worse for me.

Someone on this board referenced a video of an Afro-German author talking about the positive side of a multicultural Germany and since I’ve already written a lot I’ll just keep it brief and say I think that was “really” painted from an optimistic point of view in my opinion.

Another hurdle beyond any racist undertones is the challenge of just being American, forget being black. You will discover this is perceived both positively and negatively. Some will treat you better once they find out you are American, some will be genuinely excited to meet you and others will treat you worse viewing you as another uneducated, unsophisticated, gun-toting, McDonald eating, greedy American bully.

German women and black men

I have mixed emotions. For one thing, the finest women in Germany are not even German! They are Turkish (whew, fine!), Russian, the east Africans, etc. German women to me tend to look kind of plain in the face ‘or’ they’re doing way too much – the eyebrows are too thin, too arched, the super fake orange tans, too much make up. So, I don’t know…”they aiight.”

One thing though, and I’m not sure yet if this is a German thing or European, but dammit you will find the phattest asses walking around this place…my goodness. I think it’s in the hips, they tend to have wide hips with thick, plump asses and thighs – real donkey. It’s funny because from the waist up they will look very regular, then from the waist down it’s like…damn! You don’t really see it coming. But in my opinion Germany is the land of the butta face for sure.

Because of this, I definitely have not been sold on the notion that “a lot” of German women are all over black men. First of all, I think that idea is way, way overblown – at least in Stuttgart. Yes, it exists in specific “Black Music” clubs, etc., but to read and hear how some cats describe it as if all you have to do is walk off the plane and they’re all on you…I don’t think so.

Yes, there are some Germans who are open to the idea if approached the right way and a tighter niche group of German women who really target you because they’re hot in the pants over some music video or whatever. But their target mostly ends up being the military guys because that’s pretty much the only place they can reliably find them in the flesh. It seems to me Black American guys who are not in the military are pretty damn rare. We exist, but it’s rare. And while some will date the African guys, from what I understand most definitely prefer a Black American guy for various reasons.

I might also add though if you have some level of decent conversation, have a good style in terms of fashion, physically and how you carry yourself, speak well, and appear to be educated this can definitely upgrade the level of women you can meet. The finest women are not necessarily interested in the whole hip-hop look (at least not to the extreme). They might like the music, but tend to not respect the thug thing. Also, I have noticed a lot of the better looking German women are quite educated and have professional careers, or are currently in school. In fact, Germany in general is pretty well-educated so it certainly doesn’t hurt matters if you are too.

And those German women/girls that ‘do’ like the thug thing or over the top hip-hop heads, well, they’re the ones who usually look kind of fugged up. Nothing to me is more unattractive than an overweight German chick trying to act and talk like she is straight from the hood with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth…awful….just awful.

The bottom line is this – most of the time when I see a black dude with a German woman, I rarely think the girl is all that hot, and usually she’s not. I guess that’s my real problem - the quality. As I said, she might be alright but nothing mind-blowing, no big deal. I don’t know if I am comparing them to L.A. girls or what, but I simply don’t think they’re all that hot…in general.

On the other hand, a few of the most gorgeous girls I’ve ever seen in my life have been here in Germany…but, there’s just not a lot of them – the percentage is low. At the end of the day, the best looking women I’ve seen in the almost two years I’ve been here still have their arms around a German guy. Sorry, but that’s how I see it. Maybe it’s different in Frankfurt, Berlin or where ever.

So from my perspective, it’s not that different from the U.S.! I can really only speak for L.A. and Las Vegas, places I’ve lived where interracial dating is all over the place. It is very, very common whether the girl is white, asian or latina so I hardly see this burning rationale to move your life all the way to Germany for this reason alone – it’s not that serious. If one is so motivated, I would encourage them to travel Europe as a whole – there are some not so highly talked about places where black men can do quite well, like Prague for instance.

What ‘is’ different I think is the level of desire in German women who when they do show interest in you, it can be pretty intense. Sexual attitudes are freer in my observation. – I’m fairly tall at 6’3” and recently at a crowded bar a girl asked me how tall I was. I told her, and then she got a bit closer, reached up to kiss me and asked “what about…here” cupping my package. (The rest of the story is for another thread or website I guess)

Another situation….After having a 30 minute conversation with a middle-aged couple sitting nearby at an outdoor café, the guy starts stuttering and finally asks me if I’d like to share his wife. She just kind of sat there giggling. I assumed he was serious but I passed on that one.

Then there was a woman who referred to her desire for black men as an “addiction” and the way she described the contrast of black and white skin together, her eyes closed, half out of breath as if she were imagining the shit right then and the look on her face, it was kind of over the top and a little funny. Again, I had to pass on that one. It was turn off to be honest.

(Snip)
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Man, I concur with everything you have said and mirrors my experience and others in Germany. Paradise it is not, but its cool.

The weather does suck, about 4-5 months out of the year right at the end of spring, the entire summer and a bit of the fall you get mostly decent/sunny weather. Otherwise if its not snowing or raining its for sure COLD!

Not on this forum but on another one, if you find a hot looking girl in Germany and she's interested in American Black Men, 9 times out of 10 she's not German... More than likely Polish, Turkish, Russian, hell even Brazilian. This tends to happen more in places like Berlin however.

As I said, I couldn't agree more with your impressions of Germany. Congrats on your pending nuptials and your daughter.
 
funlove said:
could be misunderstanding and misconception. Wonder how two groups who look similar could just despise each other.
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Generally Africans think we're uncivilized. I know my boy Sam has experienced this up in the D.C area. Me, not so much I appear friendly/nonthreatening I guess.

One said I was too concerned about racism while I was in Sweden and said things were different. They aren't all that different... Its not the same as the US because its for different reasons, usually lack of experience combined with stereotypes.

In America its multi-layered if nothing else but lately based on some text I have read its largely revolves around fear of a Black Dick and taking their (White) women...
 
dj4monie said:
Generally Africans think we're uncivilized. I know my boy Sam has experienced this up in the D.C area. Me, not so much I appear friendly/nonthreatening I guess.
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And some Africans from the Ivory-Coast think that Africans from Burkina Faso and Mali are uncivilized. Most people in Congo-Kinshasa think that people from Rwanda are uncivilized etc.

I always try to advise most African Americans not to take those things seriously or personally. Many Europeans and Asians have the same superiority complex about other European or Asian countries too.

There's a book by the college professor Godfrey Mwakikagile that is specifically about relations between Africans(continental) and African Americans.

Relations Between Africans and African Americans: Misconceptions, Myths and Realities

http://www.amazon.com/Relations-Between-Africans-African-Americans/dp/0980253454

One said I was too concerned about racism while I was in Sweden and said things were different. They aren't all that different... Its not the same as the US because its for different reasons, usually lack of experience combined with stereotypes.
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For some reason, I've never been interested to visit Germany and test the "IR Market". But maybe I should try it someday. I've met many girls from Germany in Los Angeles, and they were very nice. At work, one my supervisor for the International department was from Austria. She was very pretty and she almost always mentionned the fact that her boyfriend was African American, that when she studied in London, she hanged out with Nigerian etc, always talking about Tyson Beckford and the likes.

It was as if she really wanted me to know she was really into brothers. She told me one time about not being attracted to White men because she didn't like the way they smelled :confused:

On the other hand, there were 2 girls from Germany on the same department, one from Cologne and the other from Dortmund. And it was only after 2 years we worked together that I had found out that they both had black boyfriends. One was actually engaged.

I was stunned because we talked about pretty much everything during our lunch breaks, "International tea time" etc. We talked about trips, dating and they often mentionned their boyfriends, but not once they mentionned or gave a hint that they were blacks.

So I've always wondered why the supervisor constantly mentionned it while the other two didn't. Different personality I guess...or one really loved brothers and the others simply found men they liked and to them, their races was immaterial.

As for racism is Sweden, maybe I didn't stay long enough to experience any, but generally speaking, the Swedes appear to be among the most civilized people in Europe in regards to race relations. They seem genuine, warm and very open minded. The girls are very pretty and IR is very common place there.
 
Machiavel said:
And some Africans from the Ivory-Coast think that Africans from Burkina Faso and Mali are uncivilized. Most people in Congo-Kinshasa think that people from Rwanda are uncivilized etc.

I always try to advise most African Americans not to take those things seriously or personally. Many Europeans and Asians have the same superiority complex about other European or Asian countries too.

There's a book by the college professor Godfrey Mwakikagile that is specifically about relations between Africans(continental) and African Americans.

Relations Between Africans and African Americans: Misconceptions, Myths and Realities

http://www.amazon.com/Relations-Between-Africans-African-Americans/dp/0980253454



For some reason, I've never been interested to visit Germany and test the "IR Market". But maybe I should try it someday. I've met many girls from Germany in Los Angeles, and they were very nice. At work, one my supervisor for the International department was from Austria. She was very pretty and she almost always mentionned the fact that her boyfriend was African American, that when she studied in London, she hanged out with Nigerian etc, always talking about Tyson Beckford and the likes.

It was as if she really wanted me to know she was really into brothers. She told me one time about not being attracted to White men because she didn't like the way they smelled :confused:

On the other hand, there were 2 girls from Germany on the same department, one from Cologne and the other from Dortmund. And it was only after 2 years we worked together that I had found out that they both had black boyfriends. One was actually engaged.

I was stunned because we talked about pretty much everything during our lunch breaks, "International tea time" etc. We talked about trips, dating and they often mentionned their boyfriends, but not once they mentionned or gave a hint that they were blacks.
So I've always wondered why the supervisor constantly mentionned it while the other two didn't. Different personality I guess...or one really loved brothers and the others simply found men they liked and to them, their races was immaterial.

As for racism is Sweden, maybe I didn't stay long enough to experience any, but generally speaking, the Swedes appear to be among the most civilized people in Europe in regards to race relations. They seem genuine, warm and very open minded. The girls are very pretty and IR is very common place there.
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Because it is very impolite or rassistic to mention it (in Germany).
To mention the boy friend is black shows that he is different in your eyes and out of the reason that I don't mention, if someone is from an arabic country or Italy, but I feel the need to mention that he is black- is insulting. Or do I have to warn anybody so that this person isn't shocked to see a bm, when you meet?;)
 
christine dubois said:
Because it is very impolite or rassistic to mention it (in Germany).
To mention the boy friend is black shows that he is different in your eyes and out of the reason that I don't mention, if someone is from an arabic country or Italy, but I feel the need to mention that he is black- is insulting. Or do I have to warn anybody so that this person isn't shocked to see a bm, when you meet?;)
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I see. But how different is Autrian culture from German culture? There's just a slight difference in culture and mentality between France and South Belgium(Wallonie) where French is spoken. So I am wondering how it is for Austria and Germany that also have a commmon language. Usually, different language= different mentality, different sense of humor etc.

No, you don't have to warn so anybody so they wouldn't be shocked :) I wasn't shocked at all, just very surprised because with those two co-workers, there were a lot of interaction and we often talked about travelling, me going to Ukraine etc. So they knew I liked slavic women and were often asking me about my next trips, if met a girl.

So after finding out both of them were dating black men, I just thought it was a difference in mentalities and personalities between those 3 girls and that was why the other too never mentionned. I've never thought it was a matter of politeness, or nuances in speech that can be considered impolite or racist for Germans.
Also, in my experience, most women who date or are married to black men, will always find either a sublte or direct way to let you know if you're black men. In fact, many wants you to know that they like black men.

I understand you live in Zurich, Switzerland, where German is also spoken. How is the mentality over there in regards to IR?
 
Machiavel said:
I see. But how different is Autrian culture from German culture? There's just a slight difference in culture and mentality between France and South Belgium(Wallonie) where French is spoken. So I am wondering how it is for Austria and Germany that also have a commmon language. Usually, different language= different mentality, different sense of humor etc.

No, you don't have to warn so anybody so they wouldn't be shocked :) I wasn't shocked at all, just very surprised because with those two co-workers, there were a lot of interaction and we often talked about travelling, me going to Ukraine etc. So they knew I liked slavic women and were often asking me about my next trips, if met a girl.

So after finding out both of them were dating black men, I just thought it was a difference in mentalities and personalities between those 3 girls and that was why the other too never mentionned. I've never thought it was a matter of politeness, or nuances in speech that can be considered impolite or racist for Germans.
Also, in my experience, most women who date or are married to black men, will always find either a sublte or direct way to let you know if you're black men. In fact, many wants you to know that they like black men.

I understand you live in Zurich, Switzerland, where German is also spoken. How is the mentality over there in regards to IR?
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I don't think that there is a noteworthy difference in culture between Germany and Austria, except that Germans always try to be liberal and neutral, when it comes to racism or difference in cultures/mentalities in general. we are used to be called "Nazis" out of our past, no matter what we say or how we say it, so we mostly don't mention anything. I don't know Austrians, only the ones that live in Switzerland and here they are foreigners, like most of us and have to be quiet or at least subordinate.

You know, the "warning", was a joke...I just wanted to explain that there is no reason to mention the skin colour of a person, i.e. statistics of how many percentages of black or white people live in a town is prohibited. The term "bm" was new to me, when I came to the forum, I would have never used that term before.

I assume the third woman was just living longer in USA, that's the reason, why she told you.

Regarding Switzerland...out of my observation, if you have money you are very welcome, no matter of race of nation. And what is called black on the forum (light/medium) would never be called black here in Europe..many things are different. Lately I see a lot of bm and I assume that they are Americans, not Africans.
 
christine dubois said:
I don't think that there is a noteworthy difference in culture between Germany and Austria, except that Germans always try to be liberal and neutral, when it comes to racism or difference in cultures/mentalities in general. we are used to be called "Nazis" out of our past, no matter what we say or how we say it, so we mostly don't mention anything. I don't know Austrians, only the ones that live in Switzerland and here they are foreigners, like most of us and have to be quiet or at least subordinate.
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Language is usually considered the heart of a culture and it's hard to see a difference in culture between people who share a common language despite have two distinctives nationalities. And the difference is even harder to detect from non natives when these these countries share a similar language and a border as it's the case with Austria and Germany, Belgium and France etc. I guess there are many nuances that only people of those nationalities will be able to explain.


You know, the "warning", was a joke...I just wanted to explain that there is no reason to mention the skin colour of a person, i.e. statistics of how many percentages of black or white people live in a town is prohibited. The term "bm" was new to me, when I came to the forum, I would have never used that term before.
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I am aware that your "warning" was a joke. Hence the smiley face at the end of my first sentence dealing with the paragraph. ;) I also heard on some TV shows that such statistics are prohibited by law in France. And in France, a person could actually stand trial if accused of racism or antisemtism. It happened to the famous French comedian Dieudonne, the TV announcer Fogiel, Zemmour etc. So in France, racism is an an indictable offense. Is it the same in Germany or Switzerland?

I assume the third woman was just living longer in USA, that's the reason, why she told you.
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Actually, the third woman, the one from Austria was fairly new to the US. I think 2 or 3 years while the others were in America for years. Once was about to get her citizenship and the other had a green card. The Austrian girl was her on a special working visa. I don't remember how it's called. She had come from the UK and she was well-travelled. So I really don't know how to explain the different attitudes. But, I would just say it was their different personalities.

Regarding Switzerland...out of my observation, if you have money you are very welcome, no matter of race of nation. And what is called black on the forum (light/medium) would never be called black here in Europe..many things are different. Lately I see a lot of bm and I assume that they are Americans, not Africans.
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I am suspecting that the welcome of anyone with money in Switzerland no matter of race or nation has something to do with they famous banking system? :) Just kidding.

Yes. What is considered or called black varies from country to country. It's the same in Brazil and in many African countries. If you watch the movie Jungle Fever directed by Spike Lee, Wesley Snipe's wife goes crazy because not only her husband
 
M,in my travels in Europe like Switzerland,Italy,Germany etc I have not encountered such women who in a suble way let a brother know if they are interested in a brother. You must have been engaging for them to meet you since some German women have negative feelings towards Africans. As for the banking system in Switzerland they now tell the Feds in the States on the holdings of Americans there.
 
Soulthinker said:
M,in my travels in Europe like Switzerland,Italy,Germany etc I have not encountered such women who in a suble way let a brother know if they are interested in a brother. You must have been engaging for them to meet you since some German women have negative feelings towards Africans. As for the banking system in Switzerland they now tell the Feds in the States on the holdings of Americans there.
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Black money is indeed an issue here, lately. Maybe I wasn't clear, because we are joking many times about money, here. Switzerland is pretty welcome to people in general , but of course, like all countries they try to get good people, people with education and potential and money or business connection helps. But it is a big difference i.e.to get a visa for Germany or for Switzerland. Switzerland I've had never problems, immediatly my people from Africa received, German Embassies can be very complecated.
So you need not to be wealthy or rich, just a normal educated person.
 
Christine,you are one of the most kindest person that has ever lived in Switzerland. As a friend you are irreplaceable. It would be hard to find a woman like you for a relationship beyond a friendship in Switzerland.
 
Austrian Difficulties

I have a friend on the ground in Austria and thus far dating has been difficult for him. He's been in Salzburg for over a year on IT apprenticeship. He is a dark skinned Black American and has found it specialty hard to find women to date.

He's actually had better luck with German women in Germany (via the internet).

I am assuming based on the wealth of information he's provided that he mistaken for being African... Telling isn't it?

I hardly would call Austria or Switzerland ideal locations. However having said that you will find a fan base anywhere in the world. Its just certain countries are target rich...
 
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